Single Turbo Nightmares!!

[Ark]

So you're having a pop at Ian for not wanting to thrash his car on a track, and just basing that on the fact he has single??!

 

Not at all. I'm "having a pop" as you put it, at people with over-powered cars that they're scared to use for whatever reason. If 600bhp makes a car too difficult to run on track, or too likely to blow up, then it was foolish to push it that far in my opinion.

 

I still have lots of respect for anyone with the ability and guts to build their own car to that level, but being ballsy isn't the same as being "right". Note that I've quoted the word 'right' because I know that there are many definitions of being right, and someone is bound to argue over that, rather than the key points of this post/thread.

[Bobbeh]

I agree with Ark. Its not a bash at Ian or anything, as its his daily driver I understand his reluctance in racing it... and good on him for doing the TOTB circuit.

 

I am still of the opinion that to truely enjoy your car to the maximium it is only achived on a track. No matter how many motorway sprints or 1/4 miles you do thats nothing to indicate what you can do on track. Its a shame more than anything that all these people who have spent the time and money going APU rarely properly use it imho.

 

The GSC car had a T67 single and competed well without engine problems. If anything it was the rest of the car that was problematic due to its age and how hard they were pushing.

[Thorin]

Tick.... Tock...

 

In hindsight, it wasn't such a good idea to remind Ian at the following TOTB... face like thunder. Sorry Mr C

[dangerous brain]

I am still of the opinion that to truely enjoy your car to the maximium it is only achived on a track. No matter how many motorway sprints or 1/4 miles you do thats nothing to indicate what you can do on track. Its a shame more than anything that all these people who have spent the time and money going APU rarely properly use it imho.

 

This is my exact feeling on the matter. What is the real point of having uber hoofs of power that you cannot use? I still think if I was to have a race me in a golf TDI and someone else in a singled up car of their choice from London to Birmingham and back starting at 8 am I'd fancy my chances.

I've had a BPU++ supe (here again I will disagree with the american chap, if you put the bigger cams on and better charge cooling, water injection on which all are steps you should take with a single anyways you will see significant gains, you don't have to automatically stick a bigger turbo on just to gain powers).

 

I've now got a single turbo car and I preferred the drive on my BPU car. In town its manners were way better. I didn't have to come from behind at meets on motorway trips like in my aristo. Also I didn't have to get to stupid leptonic speeds to enjoy it. There quite literally wasn't a car on the road from a standing start in any road situation that I couldn't beat (anyone I've come across so far either isn't fast enough or if fast enough not mental enough to win), The confidence my car gave me with its outright power from the instant I planted the gas pedal has not been replicated in my singled motor.

 

Also its all well and good saying you can stay stock on the rest of the engine with no problems but that really does depend on the particular engines previous life. If you get a car thats been thrashed to within an inch of its life and never serviced every day it was in Japan for 10 years how can you realistically expect it to hold up when you stick the sharp power increases you get with a single turbo?

 

IMHO each and every install is an individual prospect and will render different results. Some engines will take the power increases others won't. To be rock solid 100% certain you have to go through chris's list and to be fair probably a bit further. If you don't do that than don't be surprised when it all goes bang, and be expecting

[Nic]

T

I've now got a single turbo car and I preferred the drive on my BPU car.

 

DB what turbo do you have on the Aristo and what is the full spec (although seem to remember you saying you weren't sure)?

 

My Supra had almost everything done to it on stock turbos and dynoed at around 430fwhp. I now have a GT35R fitted which made 542fwhp.

 

That 112hp may not seem a big hike in power, the big difference is the way the power is now delivered, it's more responsive (even when not on boost) ie. positive boost at around 2K rpm and peak boost just over 3K rpm. I much prefer my car now it is single, no comparison in terms of on road performance, my BPU Supra use to feel quick, looking back it would be trounced by my single set up.

 

I think the choice of turbo and ECU/mapping is the key.

[dangerous brain]

Well I have an old HKS 61mm T04 turbo, 650CC injectors, half decent fuel supply, mapped with an AEM on my aristo. Like you say its not the actual power figure that makes the difference its the way the power is delivered. The car also gives away a hundred or so kilo's to the supra which I know is important. More modern turbo's will spool up quicker but how much money am I looking at to replace a turbo huh? The cheaper non brand turbo's will more than likely be similar in performance to my old HKS unit so selecting the right turbo for you for this job is obviously paramount.

 

Lets put it this way in my supra from a standing start you could sit with the gas pedal down a portion holding the car on the handbrake and as soon (I don't mean a second or so later I mean as soon) as you drop that handbrake and press the go pedal there was boost and you surged away from the line. In the aristo try the same thing and all you get is a lumbering away from the line from 2000 rpm, then you wait excruciating seconds for the boost to come online. Its starts somewhere around 3000 rpm blasts into full selected boost by about 3500 to 3800 and then surges round to the limiter which in L will be far faster than the ECU can handle so it bumbles around trying to change gear and rev limit (I get around this by shifting manually the instant I get any boost at all but timing is incredibly essential here as an instant too soon and it changes at 5000 rpm an instant too late and its banging away at that limiter again). Whilst all this is going on the BPU supra is quite happily larruping its way through second gear so the aristo is playing catch up already. Now bear this in mind, the speeds we are talking about here, both cars are very near to is already approaching illegal, so in all reality if we are staying legal the BPU just won hands down.

 

Next up is the overtake on a major single carriageway A road. Your are pottering along in D in both cars probably with O/D selected on and at about 45-50 if you are stuck behind something. Overtaking opportunity presents itself (yeah rare I know) so (lets assume we are going to go with manu shifts as they are way more responsive) you drop it back to 2 press in the O/D off button and hit WOT. BPU will spin up straight from the get go and off you will launch. Aristo will struggle along for a second or so before the turbo winds up from a lazy off boost coast to a demand for power, then it lets rip. For me thats a second too late as the BPU is already on its brakes to pull back in front of the car you overtook and not hit the car in front of that. The aristo is still sitting on the wrong side of the road and now surging harder at the same gap meaning its now gonna need more slowing down as well.

 

Lastly on a track when you can give it beans. The aristo did ok at Donington as none of the bends were that slow that second couldn't handle them ie the revs stayed high enough to keep the turbo spinning. Get it onto a tighter circuit like zandvoort and its buggered. Half the corners are lower speed corners than second gear. First gear is too short and surgey so unless you like drifting and bouncing the rev limiter its just not an option (the gear slam you get from the AEM in this gear change ain't clever either and is an AEM drawback). Tracks like Zandvoort emulate normal road conditions more than tracks like Donington do.

 

The only place that the aristo would take the BPU supe is on an empty motorway and getting into very very silly speeds. For me and my liking what exact use is that?

[Nic]

The extra weight of the Aristo, as you say may play a small part, the biggest difference though I think will be the turbo you have fitted.

 

I have minimal lag and even when not making positive boost it feels lively (as the manifold is a lot less restrictive compared to stock setup), but once around 2K rpm then it just goes, infact at first (when I was still getting use to it) I found myself hitting the rev limiter before I'd changed up a gear, as the revs increase so quickly in the lower gears.

 

The GT35R (AR 0.82) I fitted was around US$1,400 + postage.

[Ian C]

Should've kept it BPU, then you could thrash it all day long because you're not so close to the tolerances. Most of the time on track, for most of us, massive BHP would be a hindrance rather than a bonus. Hammering down through Paddock at Brands at WOT is awesome with 300ish BPH, but much more would be lunacy...so what's the point?

 

 

So at BPU my brakes and tyres would survive intact, I'd get no stonechips, and should anyone crash into me or if I fell off the track I'd get no damage at all.

 

Those pesky single turbo's eh?

 

The engine is the only bit I'm not worried about, plank.

 

-Ian

[Muffleman]

Having a single'd supra is kinda like having a really fit trophy girlfriend, sure you have to mind your Ps and Qs a bit, spend money on her to keep her, let her get away with alsorts etc. But it's all worth it just for that one night a month when she's had too much Blossom Hill Or when your mates see her on your arm

 

Yeah I guess the alternative is your mates sister Tracey who says yes everytime, doesn't mind a maccy D's instead of wining and dining and wears jewellery from Elizabeth Duke but secretly wou would still want the fit one

 

I'll keep my trophy single thanks

 

 

 

 

 

Incidentally, this arguement does NOT I repeat NOT work with the missus when she sees your credit card bill

[gaz1]

Having a single'd supra is kinda like having a really fit trophy girlfriend, sure you have to mind your Ps and Qs a bit, spend money on her to keep her, let her get away with alsorts etc. But it's all worth it just for that one night a month when she's had too much Blossom Hill Or when your mates see her on your arm

 

Yeah I guess the alternative is your mates sister Tracey who says yes everytime, doesn't mind a maccy D's instead of wining and dining and wears jewellery from Elizabeth Duke but secretly wou would still want the fit one

 

I'll keep my trophy single thanks

 

 

 

 

Incidentally, this arguement does NOT I repeat NOT work with the missus when she sees your credit card bill

 

yeah i thought the same until they both started screwing around:D:p

[Muffleman]

[Jake]

Having a single'd supra is kinda like having a really fit trophy girlfriend, sure you have to mind your Ps and Qs a bit, spend money on her to keep her, let her get away with alsorts etc. But it's all worth it just for that one night a month when she's had too much Blossom Hill Or when your mates see her on your arm

 

Yeah I guess the alternative is your mates sister Tracey who says yes everytime, doesn't mind a maccy D's instead of wining and dining and wears jewellery from Elizabeth Duke but secretly wou would still want the fit one

 

I'll keep my trophy single thanks

 

 

 

 

 

Incidentally, this arguement does NOT I repeat NOT work with the missus when she sees your credit card bill

That's great!

[Chris Wilson]

The elegance and good manners of the twins is hard to ignore though. Well bred, with a fortune invested in them, not flash, and unlikely to embarrass you with some awful faux pas.

[dandan]

The elegance and good manners of the twins is hard to ignore though. Well bred, with a fortune invested in them, not flash, and unlikely to embarrass you with some awful faux pas.

 

And with the right care and attention lavished in the right areas and maybe a few additions and aids along the way...the ability to suprise where the trophy girlfriend is simply expected to perform.

[Scooter]

I am still of the opinion that to truely enjoy your car to the maximium it is only achived on a track. No matter how many motorway sprints or 1/4 miles you do thats nothing to indicate what you can do on track. Its a shame more than anything that all these people who have spent the time and money going APU rarely properly use it imho.

 

I agree (but can see its not everyones cup of tea) and on the track you really do get to see the supras cornering ability. It'll lap up the (relative to the road) completely smooth tarmac and you'll see that with just a trailing/light throttle round the bends it has extremely high grip levels.............

 

........if you in any way enjoy pod you will love a track day.

[Ark]

blah blah blah, plank.

 

-Ian

 

Bite me.

 

This is a thread about turbo upgrades, and since you didn't specify otherwise, it was reasonable to assume you were worried your engine breaking. The rest I can't be bothered to argue over, since you've obviously made up your mind.

[Ian C]

Bite me.

 

Meep meep meep you were worried your engine breaking. Meep.

 

I've changed my diet for the better these days so I'll refrain.

 

No I wasn't "worried your engine breaking". Sorry to confuse you by mildly straying into a slight aside with someone that wasn't you.

 

-Ian

[JohnA]

Having a single'd supra is kinda like having a really fit trophy girlfriend, sure you have to mind your Ps and Qs a bit, spend money on her to keep her, let her get away with alsorts etc. ...

Often this is more of a curse than a blessing: You wake up one day realising that you are the sucker paying all her bills so your friends can have sex behind your back.

 

One might argue that it is better to be the friend of the guy with the supermodel girlfriend;)

[dandan]

One might argue that it is better to be the friend of the guy with the supermodel girlfriend;)

 

Tut tut..that's no way to behave!

[Gazboy]

I agree (but can see its not everyones cup of tea) and on the track you really do get to see the supras cornering ability. It'll lap up the (relative to the road) completely smooth tarmac and you'll see that with just a trailing/light throttle round the bends it has extremely high grip levels.............

 

........if you in any way enjoy pod you will love a track day.

 

Full agreement with you & Bobbeh, you can take some interesting scalps with a stock car on the track- overtaking a Caterham 1800 around the outside of a big balls bend is way more rewarding than jumping into a 600bhp car on a runway/motorway and trouncing someone you'll never see again, trouncing your mates though is fun, I'll give it that.