Single Turbo Nightmares!!

[dangerous brain]

Well there you have it guys. The whole reason why we are having blow ups across the board. AFAIK none of the blow ups have had half of the stuff listed on CWs list done. Its a pipe dream hoping that you can wedge double an engines design protocol from it without making the engine as new with no risks. I tell you what guys pop on over to ford motorsports and see how many high power cossies last a year!! Not many on 15 year old vehicles. I ran in my BPU supe against 2 tuned cossies on an airfield open day. One blew up halfway through and the other told me he had to go home and rebuild his engine. In all fairness the latter was the closest car to me over an FQ320 with 50 bhp factory mods and nitrous.

I get so pissed off sitting reading about people that honestly think they can take a 95 car with little or no service history and whack over double its normal power output out of it and still pop to the shops in it faultlessly. Get real here. Yes the japs made hugely capable cars but there is a limit. One of them being your cars previous owners.

[RobSheffield]

I get so pissed off sitting reading about people that honestly think they can take a 95 car with little or no service history and whack over double its normal power output out of it and still pop to the shops in it faultlessly. Get real here. Yes the japs made hugely capable cars but there is a limit. One of them being your cars previous owners.

 

Im with you on that

 

I sit here about to complete the single install on my 95 Supra with almost no service history

 

Its taken me as long as it has since im trying to do as good a job as i can, replace as much as i can and prevent problems in the future - i believe its called preventative maintainence

[Homer]

Well, at last I agree with DB on something

 

IME, it's all about preparation, correct choice of parts and a careful and thought-out installation. Unfortunately I learnt the hard way and have suffered (minor) reliabilty issues due to poor planning. Now it's just a case of correcting those errors and ensuring the engine is operating within limits.

[dangerous brain]

Problem with mine is its all been done elsewhere ie Japan so I have no idea whats been done be it good or bad. I have to get mine stripped just to find out Now I know why people buy stock and go from there.

[Wayney]

Thanks guys, some very useful comments. Huge thanks Chris, of course if money was no object I'd would have ordered every thing on the list. But realistically speaking, wot kind of figures are we realistically talking about to go Single, the minimum realistic or sensible budget. Say can a decent project be done for £5,000 (parts + Labour), for a 500 bhp result?

[Homer]

Thanks guys, some very useful comments. Huge thanks Chris, of course if money was no object I'd would have ordered every thing on the list. But realistically speaking, wot kind of figures are we realistically talking about to go Single, the minimum realistic or sensible budget. Say can a decent project be done for £5,000 (parts + Labour), for a 500 bhp result?

 

It depends on your goals. If you want a reliable car (as your original post suggested) then unless you car engine and ancillaries are pretty much brand new I cannot see how it's possible for just £5k. My budget spec T67dbb build cost £7k so far and it still needs another £1k spending to finalise, that’s without touching the block or head!

 

I think you would be best following Wez's example. Cast manifold, matched T61 sized turbo (such as the PHR stage 1), boost limited to 1.4bar, 650 injectors, stock rail, walbro pump, etc

 

The mapper is the key though, everything starts there. Choose your mapper, then choose your ECU.

 

In hind slight I wouldn't contemplate going single again unless I had at least £9k spare cash for a basic build, plus a few £k a year to keep it running (on top of the normal costs of Supra ownership).

[dangerous brain]

Thanks guys, some very useful comments. Huge thanks Chris, of course if money was no object I'd would have ordered every thing on the list. But realistically speaking, wot kind of figures are we realistically talking about to go Single, the minimum realistic or sensible budget. Say can a decent project be done for £5,000 (parts + Labour), for a 500 bhp result?

 

Thing is and I will get poo pooed again for this but with the right mods you can actually get very close to crank 500 on the stock setup. Close enough that if you put the two cars on a road together (not the strip but thats not real life anyways) there'll be no difference in real progression down that road. I've had both cars and currently have the cheap single sitting on my drive (at least its a cheap single conversion until I can verify otherwise) and I am convinced that my upper end BPU+++ supe was quicker overall, and way more driveable as an auto on a stock box. I also didn't have the "whats that noise" feeling when driving it all the time, and OMG my cars gonna blow up cos everyone says so on X Y or Z thread cos my turbo is wrong or my cooling is wrong or my ECU is bad or my mapper is a tw*t and will blow up the car etc etc etc.

FWIW invest the money in a good set of cams, water injection system, uprated injectors and a way of controlling them, additional cooling for your box, and engine, and some better brakes and suspension. That will make your car quicker. You won't be able to brag down the pub you have 600 bhp but you'll overtake a cheapy singled supra everytime on the road.

[gaz1]

i have recently gone single, (sometimes i wish i had not) one thing you need to do, whatever parts you need before you buy them try to read up and familiarise yourself with them what brands, what do they actualy do, something i did not do:( choose who is going install it for you carefully, try to get some unbiased views pm members who have had it done, and don,t just go somewhere because loads of other people have, (again something i did not do) because people that work on your car can seem very friendly, but at the end of the day they will as they are making money out of you:D choose your mapper carefully too, same goes with your ecu, i am seriously contemplating getting mine stripped out and starting again, ecu included, get yourself ready for major headaches:D and last but not least..................................TRUST NO ONE............. good luck whatever you decide;)

[mikeyb10supra]

This is one thing im seriouslly considering myself after hoarding parts for a single conversion for a few months now, im wondering if its really the sensible/rational thing to do. Firstly its a money pit whatever way you look at it period, your never going to recoup your investment....things wear out quicker and need replacing and older weaker stock parts break down sooner with the added power and stress put on them!

 

A BPU car is not to be sniffed at power wise same goes for a single, but for 100bhp extra and a lovely sound is it really worth all the hassle when I can jump into my BPU car and have minimal issues at a fraction of the cost, no mapping or dyno runs just a good amount of power straight out the box not deviating away from the spec toyota initially intended in the first place! I would still love to see a single turbo car vs a well sorted BPU car on a really twisty track! my guess is there would be little difference

 

I will still keep the bits I have hoarded just in case I come into a lot of money in the future, but for now its BPU for me all the way, hopefully a few more years of stress free happy motoring

 

As a minimum this is what I would go for if I were to go single

 

Autronic ECU, or failing that F-con Pro or AEM

Cast manifold, arnouts or similar

HKS, Tial, Turbonetics W/G plumbed back into the downpipe

650CC injectors

gt35 precision turbo with intake fed into the stock airobox

Fully build engine a must for a longer engine lifespan

Water injection (pre compressor)

turbosmart or blitz dual solenoid boost controller

some sort of ceramic clutch

 

 

 

lots of added cooling including a properly ducted front mount, oil cooler and transmission cooler

 

gauges in no order of preference

 

oil pressure

fuel pressure

boost

wideband

[RedM]

This is an interesting thread. There seems to be some 'honest' opinions about singles being expressed for a change.

 

A single conversion is something that I was thinking of having done at a future point. It would probably have been about the time that, in order to keep the Supra 'alive', it'd need proper rebuild.

 

From this thread and from my own opinions I can't see that it'd be worth it. While I accept that a 'sorted' single is a sight to behold and even better to drive the cost, reliability and general ball-ache in just getting it done properly have really put me off.

 

Not to mention that a stock TT is already too fast for the roads as it is. As is pretty much every other car. I can't see the sense in all that power (from a single) when it'll never be fully stretched except on a handful of track days and the odd drag strip. It seems like a huge waste of money for what is essentially a few brief seconds of fun that an ordinary Supe can't give.

 

I'm going to keep faffing with my own car, renewing bits as and when, keep the twins, BPU it and be happy with that and while it won't be the fastest car on the road, it'll be fast enough for typical driving on today's over-crowded roads.

[wkdtime]

IMHO if your going to have a single installed on a stock engine then;

 

1. Do it properly, no short cuts, no skimping especially on the fuel system.

2. Run low boost, not 1.4-1.5 Bar.

3. Go for a safe map (Low AFR's on boost 10.8-11.2 'ish') rather than an agressive map (AFR's 11.8+ 'ish')

 

That's what mine is currently set to.

 

Obvioulsy there are other factors that could cause your engine to go bang even if it is fully built.

[michel lane]

If its done right and you have a good installer there should not be any problems on the running of the car. You need to look at the backup you have with the installer. I have a set formular and it works fine, its been tested on 5 cars already including my own , the only major problem i have had is that, my fan belt snapped. So on all our installs now we change the fan belts for kevler types. But i only will give you 500-550hp reliable power, if you want more then you have to understand the outcomes "IF THINGS GO WRONG".

 

I think rather then seeing how much power you can get out of the 2JZGTE, you need to sit down with the tuner and he/she explain's the problems that you may encounter when running a single and what the outcomes would be. If they use a fixed formular that has been tested then there should not be problems , just small little issues, this is usually ironed out with the first week.

 

But if you decided to do a "D.I.Y" just make sure you know what you are doing and dont cut corners.

[tooquicktostop]

Going to cause a reaction I know but if you ask me is going single worth it on an old Toyota considering I have singled 2 Supras and 1 R32 GTR, my answer would me NO, unless you have at least 8K to single and plenty of spare cash to sort out the issues that the power causes along with the insurance, fuel, tyre wear and also the fact as in my case that a 550 BHP single becomes a second car and I have had to run daily driver along side the Supra just for practicality

Am I bitter because my car has blown its engine, Yes, is this all part of big power modded cars, I am starting to think so

Put it this way, sorting my engine out, replacing all the parts and re mapping just to get me back to where I was is going to cost over 3-4K, I did not budget for that and did not have the money in reserve, how many of you would have ?? worth a thought when planning to go single

[wkdtime]

Going to cause a reaction I know but if you ask me is going single worth it on an old Toyota considering I have singled 2 Supras and 1 R32 GTR, my answer would me NO, unless you have at least 8K to single and plenty of spare cash to sort out the issues that the power causes along with the insurance, fuel, tyre wear and also the fact as in my case that a 550 BHP single becomes a second car and I have had to run daily driver along side the Supra just for practicality

Am I bitter because my car has blown its engine, Yes, is this all part of big power modded cars, I am starting to think so

Put it this way, sorting my engine out, replacing all the parts and re mapping just to get me back to where I was is going to cost over 3-4K, I did not budget for that and did not have the money in reserve, how many of you would have ?? worth a thought when planning to go single

 

 

I feel for you mate, in your case it seem's to be due to the neglect of the tuner, too much boost without adequately retarding the ignition timing can kill a well built engine too. Until Dan presents the data from the run, e.g the Igntion timing at that boost etc then all we can do is 'assume'.

[grahamc]

Thing is and I will get poo pooed again for this but with the right mods you can actually get very close to crank 500 on the stock setup. Close enough that if you put the two cars on a road together (not the strip but thats not real life anyways) there'll be no difference in real progression down that road. I've had both cars and currently have the cheap single sitting on my drive (at least its a cheap single conversion until I can verify otherwise) and I am convinced that my upper end BPU+++ supe was quicker overall, and way more driveable as an auto on a stock box. I also didn't have the "whats that noise" feeling when driving it all the time, and OMG my cars gonna blow up cos everyone says so on X Y or Z thread cos my turbo is wrong or my cooling is wrong or my ECU is bad or my mapper is a tw*t and will blow up the car etc etc etc.

FWIW invest the money in a good set of cams, water injection system, uprated injectors and a way of controlling them, additional cooling for your box, and engine, and some better brakes and suspension. That will make your car quicker. You won't be able to brag down the pub you have 600 bhp but you'll overtake a cheapy singled supra everytime on the road.

 

I am going to have to agree with DB on this one. My car is running full system, fmic, uk spec hybrids, cams, LINK standalone ecu... And I am pretty sure my car is close to 500bhp (SRR day will tell the true tale...) Willing to compare to willing singles

 

Hopefully should be reliable once all the "little" issues are sorted...

 

Why is it that people always skip the LINK when talking ecus?? Very capable ECU, decent mappers, etc. Also quite a bit cheaper than the AEM...

 

This is an interesting thread. There seems to be some 'honest' opinions about singles being expressed for a change.

 

A single conversion is something that I was thinking of having done at a future point. It would probably have been about the time that, in order to keep the Supra 'alive', it'd need proper rebuild.

 

From this thread and from my own opinions I can't see that it'd be worth it. While I accept that a 'sorted' single is a sight to behold and even better to drive the cost, reliability and general ball-ache in just getting it done properly have really put me off.

 

Not to mention that a stock TT is already too fast for the roads as it is. As is pretty much every other car. I can't see the sense in all that power (from a single) when it'll never be fully stretched except on a handful of track days and the odd drag strip. It seems like a huge waste of money for what is essentially a few brief seconds of fun that an ordinary Supe can't give.

 

I'm going to keep faffing with my own car, renewing bits as and when, keep the twins, BPU it and be happy with that and while it won't be the fastest car on the road, it'll be fast enough for typical driving on today's over-crowded roads.

 

I thinking that you are spot on with this! On decent setup of twin turbos you can get bloody close to 500bhp. Do we really need more for the road... Not to mention the cos of going single, which is not cheap, and I completely agree that it needs to be done properly

[gaz1]

I am going to have to agree with DB on this one. My car is running full system, fmic, uk spec hybrids, cams, LINK standalone ecu... And I am pretty sure my car is close to 500bhp (SRR day will tell the true tale...) Willing to compare to willing singles

 

Hopefully should be reliable once all the "little" issues are sorted...

 

Why is it that people always skip the LINK when talking ecus?? Very capable ECU, decent mappers, etc. Also quite a bit cheaper than the AEM...

 

 

 

I thinking that you are spot on with this! On decent setup of twin turbos you can get bloody close to 500bhp. Do we really need more for the road... Not to mention the cos of going single, which is not cheap, and I completely agree that it needs to be done properly

 

just wait till mine is finally finished:eyebrows:

[JohnA]

Here are the (hypothetical?) thoughts of a blingmeister

 

550 *IS* big power

laughable, in the states they have loads of 700- 1000bhp+ supras.

ure waaay of m8

Cast iron exhaust manifold,

wot, no bling?

stainless and polished, you should no dat

genuine Garrett turbo,

XS is the same thing

model and A/R et cetera as recommended by someone that knows what they are talking about.

It's a kit from eBay, it's OK

 

Tial wastegate,

Wot trial, it shud be LOUD

proper plumbed back into downpipe wastegate pipe, with flexi section.

now ure taking da pish, ever herd of skream pipe?

 

proper heat insulation of turbo, and heat protection of surrounding parts.

there good, all uprated.

neeeext

Properly formed steel or alloy turbo oil drain pipe. Proper heat tolerant oil supply line.

what make is this 'properly'? I aint seen it in mag ads:blink:

Correct stainless fasteners for turbo and wastegate using K nuts

ure nuts if u think powa is hidin their

Forged pistons, preferably JUN, Wiseco at a pinch.

stock is good

New engine bearings and oil pump, bores and crank properly checked for size and wear.

wot ure mumblin about, its an old ngn innit

neeeext

BIG oil cooler, as big as you can fit in,

now ure talkin:d

polished to

. Stock oil filter in stock location. Stock headgasket.

both uprated, I've got them already. Very kewl.

Set of 264 cams, properly set up,

me mate got bigger cams, so I have to go one bigger.

Sorry dude.

and re shimmed, operating freshly lapped valves with new stem seals in new or perfect guides.

now u lost me

Proper, stand alone ECU, minimum of AEM, but preferably Motec, fitted and set up by someone proficient, mapped by someone ultra proficient, and tweaked on the road over several days. This'll cost a lot of dosh...

not really, I've got a supra ECU from eBay, same thing really

Bigger fuel pump, probably in tank Bosch 044 Motorsport pump with proper pickup filter.

Even better 3 pumps. That's what me mate's in the state's got, and his make's 1000bhp

Stock pressure regulator, stock rail..

no way.

FSE regulater (uprated!) bling and definitaly uprated rail. polished aluminium, mut's nuts

Set of 650 ish injectors, not re drilled, genuine things from a respected injector manufacturer, flow and spray pattern tested.

Eeeerm, wrong again.

650 is to small, me mate says 1000cc minimum.

Do the math.

Properly thought out air filtration system, preferably try and adapt the stock air box and stock paper element panel filter.

Ha ha, ure a larf inni.

Stock filter is for grannie's, everyone nos that.

HKS is da business

 

new rad (stock),

ever herd of uprated rads with propa electric fan's? eh?

 

perfect or new SMIC,

Even me dog nos that u need a FMIC shiny and big at the front.

What cave ave u bin hidin in the last 10years, eh?

 

I give up, ure a spoilsport

[grahamc]

just wait till mine is finally finished:eyebrows:

 

Im looking forward to it!!

[Alex]

Certain installs have featured...shortcuts/lack of attention. These are the ones that are failing.

The ones put together well, like Mike B's (Terry's ex VVTi) run and run....

 

The builders skill will show up over time...most failures are emminating from 1 area.

[Ian C]

This is a frustrating thread because most of the huge rash of failures we've had the last year have pretty much come out of one set of doors, and that's a simple fact.

 

Hopefully the myth of "you can go single on a Supra for under three grand" has finally been busted. A shame it was through tears and expense of the unsuspecting punters rather than common sense and research.

 

-Ian

[Ian C]

I think DB and RedM have very valid points. I don't agree you'll get 500bhp on stockers But the numerical figure is irrelevant as I do agree that you'll get enough power for the street on them. Good cams, good fuelling, good cooling, and you get the drivability of the sequential system.

 

I'm perfectly happy with my single though as the power is just the right side of ludicrous and in Norfolk I usually get to flex it at least once per journey Lucky me

 

Best I now go read the rest of this, now that my fury at the cause of this thread is cooling off

 

-Ian

[wkdtime]

I think DB and RedM have very valid points. I don't agree you'll get 500bhp on stockers But the numerical figure is irrelevant as I do agree that you'll get enough power for the street on them. Good cams, good fuelling, good cooling, and you get the drivability of the sequential system.

 

I'm perfectly happy with my single though as the power is just the right side of ludicrous and in Norfolk I usually get to flex it at least once per journey Lucky me

 

Best I now go read the rest of this, now that my fury at the cause of this thread is cooling off

 

-Ian

 

Ian, are you still running a stock engine bar the cams?

[Chris Wilson]

Here are the (hypothetical?) thoughts of a blingmeister

 

 

laughable, in the states they have loads of 700- 1000bhp+ supras.

ure waaay of m8

 

LOTS snipped

 

Oh John, you naughty fella, quite made my morning though

[Chris Wilson]

Thanks guys, some very useful comments. Huge thanks Chris, of course if money was no object I'd would have ordered every thing on the list. But realistically speaking, wot kind of figures are we realistically talking about to go Single, the minimum realistic or sensible budget. Say can a decent project be done for £5,000 (parts + Labour), for a 500 bhp result?

 

If you do it for 8K you have bought parts and labour at trade rates, 10K is more realistic, 12K might cover the stuff I realize I have missed, like a wide band AFR gauge set up, the lovely "sundries" that always add a few hundered quid to a bill like this, fabrication costs to make stuff fit, blah blah. I see to recall doing the maths properly for Nick in Japan, and we got to near 15K for a pukka jobbie.

 

The serious Skyline lads are spending 50K upwards for big power cars that outlast their first track day.

[JohnA]

Oh John, you naughty fella, quite made my morning though

Well in this sort of threads repetition certainly doesn't seem to work, does it... (sorry, inni)