grahamc Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 There is no information - that's one of the things us techy's would like to fill in the blanks...wasn't necessarily trying to trip anyone up.... The swept area doesn't look very big and that can have a major impact on braking torque/effort. It's not just the size of the rotors that counts. I understand that, it was just something that I wanted to bring up. At the end of the day, I have a UK brake setup on my car, and I am looking to upgrade (near future) but I dont want to have to go and spend 2k to get a better brake setup, I cannot afford that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPRASUZUKI Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 There's an easy way to settle at least part of this. Just post up the following dimensions of each brake setup: Brembo EVO8 / Stock Supra J-spec 2pot and stock Supra UK spec 4-pot: Distance from centre of hub to middle of brake pad. Diameter of pistons in brake caliper. This will enable me to work out the braking torque per unit effort applied at the pedal (assuming that the master cylinder is the same on all three versions). Assuming all other things remain equal (brake pad friction, caliper rigidity, fade, etc, etc) then that is at least a dispassionate comparison of each setup. We already know that different pad materials can stop better or worse, or be more or less resistant to fade, so removing them from the equation is probably an even fairer comparison. I'd be happy to do the calcs if someone can post up the data. I had a quick look on Google but I can't find anything. Don't start bringing logic into it, you'll spoil all the fun!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 At the end of the day, I have a UK brake setup on my car, and I am looking to upgrade (near future) but I dont want to have to go and spend 2k to get a better brake setup, I cannot afford that. Why do you need to upgrade your brakes? I see no reason what so ever for road use and even on the track they're very effective. A different set of pads or disks maybe of more benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branners Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Why do you need to upgrade your brakes? I see no reason what so ever for road use and even on the track they're very effective. A different set of pads or disks maybe of more benefit. thats a good point. A well maintained set of UK spec brakes with good pads like CW fast road (or even race) pads will be the match for most things on the track or road. It would be good to have Chris Wilsons view on this as he loves the OEM stuff on his cars where possible, but I feel Chris is another techie who wont venture in to these arguements for the reasons mentioned above. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Don't start bringing logic into it, you'll spoil all the fun!! I'm an Engineer. That's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPRASUZUKI Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I'm an Engineer. That's what I do. I concur:) However I'm not sure a purely dimensional comparison is conclusive enough. As you say, pad an disc material has a large bearing on brake performance. I changed from stock pads to EBC pads on the bike (stock calipers and discs) and the difference was incredible. The first time I used them 'in anger', the front almost locked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Why do you need to upgrade your brakes? I see no reason what so ever for road use and even on the track they're very effective. A different set of pads or disks maybe of more benefit. thats a good point. A well maintained set of UK spec brakes with good pads like CW fast road (or even race) pads will be the match for most things on the track or road. It would be good to have Chris Wilsons view on this as he loves the OEM stuff on his cars where possible, but I feel Chris is another techie who wont venture in to these arguements for the reasons mentioned above. JB Well my car is a JSpec, so I am assuming that the UK brakes have on the car since first bought, so that would put them at 13 years old. I am replacing most things on the car why not the brakes as well. I am also running about 450+ bhp, with thoughts of moving to a gt35r single in the not too distant future, so I would rather be safe than sorry... Brake setup is currenly, UK calipers, OEM discs, CW fast road pads, GR braided lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I concur:) However I'm not sure a purely dimensional comparison is conclusive enough. As you say, pad an disc material has a large bearing on brake performance. I changed from stock pads to EBC pads on the bike (stock calipers and discs) and the difference was incredible. The first time I used them 'in anger', the front almost locked up. I think we are in heated agreement here If the dimensions say that the geometry is significantly better then it should be a worthwhile upgrade. It there is cock all in it then simply fitting a more friction-y set of pads to a stock steup would be a better bangs-for-buck mod. I'm assuming that stock for stock the pads and disks won't be tremendously different, which may be a valid assumption or it may not be. I'm most interested in the piston diameters, TBH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Well my car is a JSpec, so I am assuming that the UK brakes have on the car since first bought, so that would put them at 13 years old. I am replacing most things on the car why not the brakes as well. I am also running about 450+ bhp, with thoughts of moving to a gt35r single in the not too distant future, so I would rather be safe than sorry... Brake setup is currenly, UK calipers, OEM discs, CW fast road pads, GR braided lines. Well if you're desperate to replace them, go for it. If you were a die hard track freak I would suggest going 6 pot or getting some StopTechs etc. I still think unless you constantly drive like a loon on public roads a decent UK setup is more than sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Well my car is a JSpec, so I am assuming that the UK brakes have on the car since first bought, so that would put them at 13 years old. A piston seal refurb kit and a lick of paint will make them as good as new Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Well if you're desperate to replace them, go for it. If you were a die hard track freak I would suggest going 6 pot or getting some StopTechs etc. I still think unless you constantly drive like a loon on public roads a DECENT UK setup is more than sufficient. Thats my point, I dont know how decent they are. A piston seal refurb kit and a lick of paint will make them as good as new That sounds interesting... How difficult is it to do? Prices (PM please) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Well a stock UK setup is decent enough, read branners post 70-0 mph braking in 149ft! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobSheffield Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Thats my point, I dont know how decent they are. Very decent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Very decent I meant MY setup... not the UK spec in general... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4RK RZ Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 There's an easy way to settle at least part of this. Just post up the following dimensions of each brake setup: Brembo EVO8 / Stock Supra J-spec 2pot and stock Supra UK spec 4-pot: Distance from centre of hub to middle of brake pad. Diameter of pistons in brake caliper. This will enable me to work out the braking torque per unit effort applied at the pedal (assuming that the master cylinder is the same on all three versions). Assuming all other things remain equal (brake pad friction, caliper rigidity, fade, etc, etc) then that is at least a dispassionate comparison of each setup. We already know that different pad materials can stop better or worse, or be more or less resistant to fade, so removing them from the equation is probably an even fairer comparison. I'd be happy to do the calcs if someone can post up the data. I had a quick look on Google but I can't find anything. Ha , dude - thats exactly what I started doing last night I got into finding the data etc and then about 1 hour later decided that there are that many variables (that need leaving out like you mention) that people would not agree anyhow on a set of results from a standard base line. (even if from TWO professional engineers)! Its basically what I lernt in Uni regarding Hydrolic control systems / Fluid Flow dynamics , Bernoulli's equation and all that jazz. I found a site that explains it in a more "basic" way than the equations we lernt by. I think it will help Mr dibbs regarding research and alot of other members understand how much there is behind a brake set up in regards calculations etc.. its not black and white. http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.htm If you need to lent a brain I dont mind helping out at all mate. ITs the raw data thats important - and of course its not always easy to get without alot of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I am replacing most things on the car why not the brakes as well. I am also running about 450+ bhp, with thoughts of moving to a gt35r single in the not too distant future, so I would rather be safe than sorry... allthough i question the value of this brembo brake upgrade i am a bit concerned the way the thread is going, you can allmost guarantee if someone comes on this board suggesting a brake "upgrade" they will get flamed by the "whats wrong with the UK brakes brigade" its the same old faces every time this subject is brought up, if the guy wants his car to stop faster what is the problem, i am in the middle of a brake upgrade myself comprising 8 pot brembos front (360mm disks) and 4 pot brembo rear (330mm disks) i am doing this "because i can" and for no commercial gain, i wont be offering a kit but would like to share with the forum and make all the info, parts, drawings etc available to anyone, but TBH i probably wont bother cos i'll get flamed as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 allthough i question the value of this brembo brake upgrade i am a bit concerned the way the thread is going, you can allmost guarantee if someone comes on this board suggesting a brake "upgrade" they will get flamed by the "whats wrong with the UK brakes brigade" its the same old faces every time this subject is brought up, if the guy wants his car to stop faster what is the problem, i am in the middle of a brake upgrade myself comprising 8 pot brembos front (360mm disks) and 4 pot brembo rear (330mm disks) i am doing this "because i can" and for no commercial gain, i wont be offering a kit but would like to share with the forum and make all the info, parts, drawings etc available to anyone, but TBH i probably wont bother cos i'll get flamed as well No you won't. For the last time, I only flamed when told to piss off for asking questions. And for what it's worth I now KNOW that the Brembo's Wayne has fitted are smaller than UK spec brakes....you're sound like they could be a real improvement. So is your kit using Brembo OEM stoppers from another car or off the shelf Brembo parts? I take it you're not using the Brembo Supra kit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 We need some numbers as Digsy suggested. The maths is a piece of piss to do the comparison and would certainly give us an idea of the setups compare. Paul Mac - if you post up the numbers for yours I'm sure it will stand out like a sore thumb how much MORE potential your brakes have than the UK specs so don't worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPRASUZUKI Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Ha , dude - thats exactly what I started doing last night I got into finding the data etc and then about 1 hour later decided that there are that many variables (that need leaving out like you mention) that people would not agree anyhow on a set of results from a standard base line. (even if from TWO professional engineers)! Its basically what I lernt in Uni regarding Hydrolic control systems / Fluid Flow dynamics , Bernoulli's equation and all that jazz. I found a site that explains it in a more "basic" way than the equations we lernt by. I think it will help Mr dibbs regarding research and alot of other members understand how much there is behind a brake set up in regards calculations etc.. its not black and white. http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.htm If you need to lent a brain I dont mind helping out at all mate. ITs the raw data thats important - and of course its not always easy to get without alot of work. Two proffesional engineers? Ok, I'm not offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJButler Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 There's an easy way to settle at least part of this. Just post up the following dimensions of each brake setup: Brembo EVO8 / Stock Supra J-spec 2pot and stock Supra UK spec 4-pot: Distance from centre of hub to middle of brake pad. Diameter of pistons in brake caliper. This will enable me to work out the braking torque per unit effort applied at the pedal (assuming that the master cylinder is the same on all three versions). Assuming all other things remain equal (brake pad friction, caliper rigidity, fade, etc, etc) then that is at least a dispassionate comparison of each setup. We already know that different pad materials can stop better or worse, or be more or less resistant to fade, so removing them from the equation is probably an even fairer comparison. I'd be happy to do the calcs if someone can post up the data. I had a quick look on Google but I can't find anything. Ahha At last someone has considered the master cylinder, i was starting to think i wa not in the Tec section. the braking system needs to be considered as a whole not a thing in which you change odd bits willy nilly. This is only my opinion and is not a critisism of anyone in particular so if you don't like it tough. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Digsy, What do you need from the 2 pot setup, I'll gladly go outside and do some measurements... My UK's are on the other car which isn't nearby so someone else may have to do the UK's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I have UKs... But if you think of a technical guru, well Im the opposite... so details needs are required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPRASUZUKI Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Just found this on planet Soarer. Makes interesting reading (if true of course). Here's the link. http://planetsoarer.com/suprabrakesII/SupraBrakeUpgrade.htm Braking performance comparison: Vehicle Braking horsepower Ferrari F1 7000+ Porsche Twin Turbo GT1 2060 Brembo/AP 6 pot 385mm discs 2040 Mercedes Brabus V12 1950 Supra TT 4 pots with Mintex grooved discs 1760 Wilwood Rallystop 4pot 355mm discs 1750 Brembo/AP 6 pot 355mm discs 1680 Maclaren F1 1670 Supra TT 4 pots 1665 Wilwood Rallystop 4pot 320mm discs 1640 Brembo/AP 6 pot 320mm discs 1590 Porsche 996 C2/C4 1590 Ferrari 456GT 1480 Supra / Soarer TT 2 pots 1010 Lamborghini Muira (1966) 780 Ford Mondeo 2Ltr Saloon 700 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Ahha At last someone has considered the master cylinder, i was starting to think i wa not in the Tec section. the braking system needs to be considered as a whole not a thing in which you change odd bits willy nilly. This is only my opinion and is not a critisism of anyone in particular so if you don't like it tough. Dave Nobody seems to pay any attention to the master cylinder when upgrading from J spec to UK spec and it is different. Just a point - not an arguement.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Just found this on planet Soarer. Makes interesting reading (if true of course). Here's the link. http://planetsoarer.com/suprabrakesII/SupraBrakeUpgrade.htm Braking performance comparison: Vehicle Braking horsepower Ferrari F1 7000+ Porsche Twin Turbo GT1 2060 Brembo/AP 6 pot 385mm discs 2040 Mercedes Brabus V12 1950 Supra TT 4 pots with Mintex grooved discs 1760 Wilwood Rallystop 4pot 355mm discs 1750 Brembo/AP 6 pot 355mm discs 1680 Maclaren F1 1670 Supra TT 4 pots 1665 Wilwood Rallystop 4pot 320mm discs 1640 Brembo/AP 6 pot 320mm discs 1590 Porsche 996 C2/C4 1590 Ferrari 456GT 1480 Supra / Soarer TT 2 pots 1010 Lamborghini Muira (1966) 780 Ford Mondeo 2Ltr Saloon 700 Now that is interesting... very interesting!! Nobody seems to pay any attention to the master cylinder when upgrading from J spec to UK spec and it is different. Just a point - not an arguement.... thats a good point, I dont think it upgraded when the UK specs were choosen as an option on the JSpecs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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