Europe

[Kendo11]

You said there was limited offical documentation, so I say again how can anyone decide if they are not given all the facts?

The vote is due no later than the end of 2017. That means there's just under two years for all of the facts and figures and speeches to become clear by then.

 

So there's no need to make your mind up already if you are unsure.

 

Also, as it is up to you to decide, it's also up to you to do your own reading about the subject and come to your own conclusions.

 

It is up to the individual to read what both sides say on the matter, and make their mind up themselves, no one can do it for you.

 

Like I said though - it's early days, most of what's coming out already is just political maneuvering.

 

Some good links have been posted here so far, but Google yourself "why should we leave the EU" and then try "why should we stay in the EU". Then separate fact from lie from both sides and come to a decision.

 

That or just go with your own heart.

[Kendo11]

Exactly. Frau Merkel unilaterally handed out an invite to refugees, and the economic migrants saw it as a green light. She then tried to inflict forced quotas on all the EU countries, which she had no right to do. And now, because of her reckless actions, the Greeks are suffering, and the solution is to close the gates and make them deal with it.

 

I'm baffled by how she is able to keep her job. I wonder how many genuine refugees have either died or ended up in slavery by the traffickers, thanks to her irresponsible rhetoric?

'Time' person of the year also....

 

I've always maintained a strong pro refugee stance, and still do, it is like you've pointed out the mismanagement of the situation that has done it for me.

 

When volunteers and expats and local Greeks are bearing the responsibility for pulling dead people out of the sea, the EU has failed.

 

That's my personal reason for voting out ahead of economic and financial reasons, but those do come into it also.

[Al Massey]

Ken, the votes in a few months

[Kendo11]

Ken, the votes in a few months

Yes you're right, just read that it's 23rd June. Still plenty of time though.

[Westcoaster]

My thoughts exactly. People from Scotland need to accept that Scotland has had its say and it wants to remain part of Britain.

 

Really? The 45% who wanted independence is growing and the second vote is inevitable. If the majority of voters vote to stay in the EU, I take it we won't hear any more from you 'outers' then?

[ianhid]

One interesting technicality to consider is that if we vote out and the PM actually acts on it (article 50), there is no requirement for the EU to allow to change our minds and cancel the decision. Some would say this is a good thing, but for anyone who thinks that it'll all be renegotiated on a strong threat to leave, it might be a bit of a surprise.

 

I fully agree with a number of the arguments for out, just that personally I think the benefits to leaving will not be quite as advertised and that there are other strong benefits to staying in.

[j_jza80]

Really? The 45% who wanted independence is growing and the second vote is inevitable. If the majority of voters vote to stay in the EU, I take it we won't hear any more from you 'outers' then?

 

Presumably as the majority of the Scottish mainland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the UK, they aren't going to be dragged out of the UK by a few, small regions?

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29255449

[Westcoaster]

Presumably as the majority of the Scottish mainland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the UK, they aren't going to be dragged out of the UK by a few, small regions?

 

The graphic doesn't tell you which are the most densely populated areas, a hint is that they are blue on the map!

[j_jza80]

That's obvious

 

But why should a few cities drag a whole country out? After all, by the SNP's rationale, it isn't fair for the larger and more populated England to drag Scotland out.

 

I wonder if a two state solution needs considering?

[Westcoaster]

That's obvious

 

But why should a few cities drag a whole country out? After all, by the SNP's rationale, it isn't fair for the larger and more populated England to drag Scotland out.

 

I wonder if a two state solution needs considering?

 

If your 'two states' are Scotland and England, I'm right behind you!

[Big Supes]

Really?

 

Yes, otherwise you would be 'independent'. A vote isn't really that hard to grasp.

 

 

The 45% who wanted independence is growing and the second vote is inevitable.

 

Until there is another referendum, all of the above is merely hot air. Until then, just accept it - you had your chance and Scotland said "we want to remain united".

 

If the majority of voters vote to stay in the EU, I take it we won't hear any more from you 'outers' then?

 

Nope. Put up or shut up. If the UK decide to stay within the EU, I will accept our choice and move on. I certainly wouldn't bring it up again when discussing something entirely different.

 

You wanted your referendum, you got it. It's not England's fault you bottled it.

[Westcoaster]

I certainly wouldn't bring it up again when discussing something entirely different.

 

You wanted your referendum, you got it. It's not England's fault you bottled it.

 

The two referendums are linked, the exit of the UK from the EU will prompt another Independence referendum in Scotland, which is a consequence that those who think that the 'UK' will be stronger out of Europe, have not realised or considered.

 

Leaving the EU is about a lot more than complaining about the numbers of Romanian car washers, Polish plumbers or Lithuanian labourers, it is about potentially losing trade, peace, economic integration and the desire to make Europe a genuine competitor to the US.

 

I find it very depressing that there is a dearth of hard facts about the consequences and potential benefits of leaving and for staying in the EU. The right wing press have their agenda and will create another climate of fear to influence the decision of the ill-educated and ignorant, just as they did in the Scottish independence referendum.

 

There are a few on here who have an inflated opinion of just how important the UK is in the modern world, get over yourselves! Make no mistake, we need Europe more than they need us. The UK has been a reluctant and recalcitrant member of the EU since Thatcher's time, frankly, I'm sure many EU governments would happily like to see the back of us.

 

To mis-quote Lyndon B Johnston, it's better to be on the inside pissing out of the tent than on the outside trying to piss in. The EU is far from perfect, but it's better to work to make it work more effectively, than simply flounce out and not have a fall back position.

[j_jza80]

and the desire to make Europe a genuine competitor to the US.

 

Why would we want that? The most expensive health service in the world, with huge personal cost, unrestrained capitalism, huge wealth inequality etc.

 

I have no interest in a United States of Europe, and even if we vote to stay in, or isn't on the agenda for us. It would require further powers to be ceded to the EU, which would start another referendum.

 

And given the scale of Euroscepticism across the UK, a referendum based on further power to Brussels wouldn't stand a chance of going in the EU's favour.

[Al Massey]

Do you think Scotland can afford to be in the EU without the rest of the U.K.?

Since it was questionable if you could survive on your own.

 

Better to make what work?

We have no pull or say in the EU.

That's been made clear for years and even more so now since Cameron did not get his deal breakers.

 

Funny you mention inflated opinions.

Surely we could say the same for you?

About independent Scotland and for staying in the EU?

 

There will be peace of we leave the EU.

 

NATO and the UN has more members than the EU.

[Westcoaster]

Do you think Scotland can afford to be in the EU without the rest of the U.K.?

Since it was questionable if you could survive on your own.

 

Yes and you know that it is ridiculous to suggest that Scotland couldn't 'survive' on it's own

 

Better to make what work?

We have no pull or say in the EU.

That's been made clear for years and even more so now since Cameron did not get his deal breakers.

 

There will be absolutely no pull or say with the EU if we are out of it!

 

Funny you mention inflated opinions.

Surely we could say the same for you?

About independent Scotland and for staying in the EU?

Scotland was told prior to the referendum that we wouldn't be able to join the EU if we became independent and that the only way to guarentee staying in Europe was to vote No in the independence referendum. Now it looks that we may be out anyway! Legally, perhaps it can be argued that England leaves and that the others who wish to stay can retain the membership? Who knows?

 

There will be peace of we leave the EU.

 

NATO and the UN has more members than the EU.

I sincerely hope so!

[Westcoaster]

Why would we want that? The most expensive health service in the world, with huge personal cost, unrestrained capitalism, huge wealth inequality etc.

 

I have no interest in a United States of Europe, and even if we vote to stay in, or isn't on the agenda for us. It would require further powers to be ceded to the EU, which would start another referendum.

 

And given the scale of Euroscepticism across the UK, a referendum based on further power to Brussels wouldn't stand a chance of going in the EU's favour.

 

When I compare the EU and US, I mean in terms of trade and as a manufacturing and R&D block, not to emulate the USA's healthcare or gun obsession!

[j_jza80]

The obsession with trade and capitalism will only lead to full privatisation though.

 

To be honest, I love Europe the way it is. I think it would be a tragedy to forsake centuries of amazing culture in favour of the disposable consumer society the Americans have.

 

Let China and the US fight for the top spot, neither place will ever be on the same level as us in the ways that really matter.

[Al Massey]

Yes and you know that it is ridiculous to suggest that Scotland couldn't 'survive' on it's own

 

 

 

There will be absolutely no pull or say with the EU if we are out of it!

 

Scotland was told prior to the referendum that we wouldn't be able to join the EU if we became independent and that the only way to guarentee staying in Europe was to vote No in the independence referendum. Now it looks that we may be out anyway! Legally, perhaps it can be argued that England leaves and that the others who wish to stay can retain the membership? Who knows?

 

I sincerely hope so!

 

No I don't know.

I really don't think it could.

And I definitely don't think it can afford to be in the EU.

We wouldn't need a say or pull in the EU if we are out, that's the point.

So it's known that Scotland can't join the EU on its own.

I'm sure someone would say there is a legal angle but it probably wouldn't hold up.

 

There's no need to hope.

We are on the security council of the UN.

We are 1 out of 5 world super powers.

We have treaties with many many countries.

No one would go to war with us, and why would anyone want a war with us if we left the EU?

 

Same as why would anyone stop trading with us because we are out?

 

I get they may not buy from us but they certainly wouldn't stop selling to us.

[Big Supes]

The two referendums are linked, the exit of the UK from the EU will prompt another Independence referendum in Scotland, which is a consequence that those who think that the 'UK' will be stronger out of Europe, have not realised or considered.

 

You said with the growing support for independence a second vote is inevitable. It took it you meant whether we stay in the EU or not? Just be honest, you want to make this about Scotland vs England and on that note, I revert back to my previous post - put up or shut up.

 

Leaving the EU is about a lot more than complaining about the numbers of Romanian car washers, Polish plumbers or Lithuanian labourers, it is about potentially losing trade, peace, economic integration and the desire to make Europe a genuine competitor to the US.

 

You're right, its not just about the out-of-control net migration into the UK, it's also about leaving a plastic democracy were unelected officials decide what happens within the UK. The UK, just like Norway and Switzerland will be able to negotiate it's own trade agreement.

 

 

I find it very depressing that there is a dearth of hard facts about the consequences and potential benefits of leaving and for staying in the EU. The right wing press have their agenda and will create another climate of fear to influence the decision of the ill-educated and ignorant, just as they did in the Scottish independence referendum.

 

At this stage the pros and cons are more speculative than factual. I am not sure if I am the one who has been influenced by either side of the mainstream political spectrum here.

 

There are a few on here who have an inflated opinion of just how important the UK is in the modern world, get over yourselves! Make no mistake, we need Europe more than they need us. The UK has been a reluctant and recalcitrant member of the EU since Thatcher's time, frankly, I'm sure many EU governments would happily like to see the back of us.

 

Even though I was just a kid, I remember similar arguments when Michael Heseltine and his backers wanted the UK to abandon the Pound Sterling in favour for the Euro. Look at how that would have worked out.

 

To mis-quote Lyndon B Johnston, it's better to be on the inside pissing out of the tent than on the outside trying to piss in. The EU is far from perfect, but it's better to work to make it work more effectively, than simply flounce out and not have a fall back position.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but it feels like the UK is the tent being p!ssed in by the EU, and it stinks! The EU can p!ss off elsewhere, if you ask me.

[Westcoaster]

You said with the growing support for independence a second vote is inevitable. It took it you meant whether we stay in the EU or not? Just be honest, you want to make this about Scotland vs England and on that note, I revert back to my previous post - put up or shut up.

 

There is a growing support for independence in Scotland, politics has changed forever since the independence referendum, evidenced by 56 out of the 59 Scottish MPs being from the SNP and the polls suggesting a landslide towards the SNP in the forthcoming Scottish government elections on May 5th.

 

However, my point is that an out vote in the EU referendum is a trigger point to speed up that process, bringing it forward by several years. So in terms of the Scotland v England argument, the strong euro scepticism in England may take the UK out of the EU, which may be against the voting wishes of the Scots, the Welsh and the folks in Ulster, which may in turn cause the break up of the UK.

 

Leaving the EU has many potential unintended consequences, it's very important that people vote with a rounded knowledge and not from a rabid distrust of 'foreigners'.

[Big Supes]

There is a growing support for independence in Scotland, politics has changed forever since the independence referendum, evidenced by 56 out of the 59 Scottish MPs being from the SNP and the polls suggesting a landslide towards the SNP in the forthcoming Scottish government elections on May 5th.

 

However, my point is that an out vote in the EU referendum is a trigger point to speed up that process, bringing it forward by several years. So in terms of the Scotland v England argument, the strong euro scepticism in England may take the UK out of the EU, which may be against the voting wishes of the Scots, the Welsh and the folks in Ulster, which may in turn cause the break up of the UK.

 

Exactly, it's going to happen anyway, so why should anyone in England care? Because it will speed up the process? Personally, that can only be a good thing. The sooner you lot make your mind up once and for all, the quicker we can stop hearing the constant whining.

 

The problem lays within the eyes of those who do not see the UK as united. You don't want to be part of the UK so you're making this about England, and contrary to your beliefs, there are in fact English folk who wish to stay part of the EU.

 

Leaving the EU has many potential unintended consequences

 

Sure, and if I stated the opposite it would merely amount to the pair of us speculating to push our agendas.

 

 

it's very important that people vote with a rounded knowledge and not from a rabid distrust of 'foreigners'.

 

I'm not sure if these blanket statements are aimed at me or towards all the 'outers', but like I have previously stated, an EU exit would be for many other reasons other than immigration.

[Al Massey]

If we don't get out, I think it's only fair that we keep moaning and complaining demanding another vote and won't stop till we get it!

[Westcoaster]

Exactly, it's going to happen anyway, so why should anyone in England care? Because it will speed up the process? Personally, that can only be a good thing. The sooner you lot make your mind up once and for all, the quicker we can stop hearing the constant whining.

 

The problem lays within the eyes of those who do not see the UK as united. You don't want to be part of the UK so you're making this about England, and contrary to your beliefs, there are in fact English folk who wish to stay part of the EU.

 

 

 

Sure, and if I stated the opposite it would merely amount to the pair of us speculating to push our agendas.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure if these blanket statements are aimed at me or towards all the 'outers', but like I have previously stated, an EU exit would be for many other reasons other than immigration.

 

It's not personal, we are giving our opinions as to how we vote in the forthcoming referendum. If it gets personal, then I'm out.

[AJI]

Really? The 45% who wanted independence is growing and the second vote is inevitable. If the majority of voters vote to stay in the EU, I take it we won't hear any more from you 'outers' then?

 

The 55.3% of those who voted "in the UK" were more than the 44.7% percentage that voted "out"

 

Democracy isn't supposed to work on the basis that if one vote doesn't return the result you want, then simply keep voting until it does.

A vote decision is supposed to be lasting enough to satisfy the majority population who took part in the vote in hand.

 

Not wanting to 'pick' on those who want Scottish independence, but the idea of wanting to be an independent nation, but at the same time to not be, because you want to be assimilated in to the EU, strikes me as a very strange line of thinking.

[j_jza80]

I'm going to be intrigued to hear the SNP campaign message to stay in The EU. They seem to be doing everything they can to avoid using a fear message, but nationalism always goes hand in hand with scaremongering, so I'm sure the mask will slip at some point.