tDR Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Let me borrow your gearbox and we will see You could as well, you don't make enough torque to trouble a BL box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 A couple of 40-90 and 70-140 runs would be an awesome comparison...come on fellas I think the santa pod clip shows it pretty well, Colin's is spinning in the first 4 gears so I cross the line first. If Colin had the grip he would have been quicker. I am sure we can arrange something though in the interest of science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 You could as well, you don't make enough torque to trouble a BL box Yeah need to be carefull with those BL boxes they are a bit fragile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprastu Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 This has been great to read. Very Informative, thank you all for your time and effort, this really does help with the ongoing question of 'how much power?' and 'can I use it all?'. I am going for an everyday fast road car that can use as much of its power without shredding tyres. The figure of 600BHP was just a guideline, I don't for any moment feel that I need, or can indeed use, that amount of power. Again, thank you all for your help. This is a very friendly club with a lot of very knowledgable people and I am proud to be a member. Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KenHenderson Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) I think thats what ken hendersons supra in the states uses and its suposed to be a daily driver with over 1000bhp!! Anyway its twin turbo supras we have (sorry na owners) not turbo supra:p Actually, my black car has never been a daily driver, but she has more than a few miles on her nevertheless. She's made as much as 1115 whp and 840 rwt at a tad under 37 psi using C16 racing gas Correctly specified and manifolded twins will spool faster than a correctly specified and manifolded single turbo. It's the extra cost, complication and work if twins that makes most people opt for a single turbo installation. I generally agree with this statement. Counting the OEM twins, I have had four separate twin-turbo set-ups on Blackie, with three of the four set-ups running in parallel and three of the four set-ups using journal bearing turbos. My current set-up includes an HKS 3.4L stroker kit, twin HKS GT3240 DBB turbos, velocity-biased head work, HKS 272 cams, eight 1000 cc injectors, twin HKS/Denso fuel pumps, a VeilSide intake manifold, twin 70 mm downpipes transitioning into twin 75 mm mid-pipes that "Y" into 4-inch HKS racing titanium exhaust. The car also has an OS Giken quad disc clutch, Race Logic Adjustable Traction Control and an HKS F-CON V Pro EMS with maps for 91-octane pump fuel, VP 109 Motorsport Unleaded and Q16 race fuel. Last weekend, I put 600-miles on her driving to and from the Sin City Showdown in Las Vegas with other Supra-owning friends. In any event, I have almost 60,000 twin-turbo miles on the car and, in its various iterations, have road raced the car and raced and beaten many, many cars and bikes over the years. I said all that to say this: The HKS 2835 twin-turbo kit, with the right supporting mods will make 800+ whp all day long. I have friends whose HKS 2835 cars have made 813 whp, 820 whp and 826 whp, respectively, on boost alone, so the OPs quest for 600 bhp would be so easily accomplished with HKS twins as to not be worth the expense involved. His power goals can easily be met with a 61 mm turbo. Some have made erroneous conclusions, IMO, about traction and the lagginess of the HKS twins set-up and the technological relevancy of these turbos in 2009. First, the HKS GT turbos are true dual ball-bearing turbos which, as a rule, spool quicker than their journal bearing bretheren, are stronger and handle high boost better. No company, IMO, makes a more advanced ball-bearing turbo and, as has been posted in several billet turbo threads on SF, there is NO spool advantage to billet turbos and the power advantages seen with certain 67 mm versions are directly attributable to new wheel design rather than its billet construction. Many guys go up in A/R with DBB turbos because they can get away with it and the motor breathes better on the top end along with lower, associated intake air temperatures. Since their initial release in the U.S. in 1997, the HKS DBB GT turbos have come with divided manifolds and with twin-scroll backhousings and twin wastegates with a balance tube. As most of you know, these features are all the rage now, but they have been available to HKS customers for more than a decade. My much smaller journal bearing, twin GReddy TD06L2 20G 8cm2turbos "hit" much harder than the larger HKS GT3240s, with the initial "hit" upsetting the car more, and creating more tire spin, when driven in anger than the larger GT3240s. The most I ever made with the GReddy set-up was 801 whp and 633 rwt. The car "felt" as fast, initially, with the turbos hitting harder but, apples to apples, the GReddy equipped car was down over 300 whp to the HKS car. What Lee has said is true in one important respect. Properly sized twin-turbo cars drive much better than they dyno. At first I didn't believe it, but racing all of my big single friends with 800 whp big singles demonstrated to me that I had the advantage in spool, mid-range and top end. In order to do this comparison properly, you have to compare the HKS 2835 set-up to an 800+ whp big single set-up. Excepting the new Precision 67 mm billet turbos, a 67 mm turbo will not make 800 wheel on boost alone. You've got to go with a turbo in the 71 mm range to make 800 wheel comfortably. This probably means an A/R in the neighborhood of at least .81. The 2835s come with A/Rs of .61, .73 and .87. The most power I've seen an HKS 2835 car with .61 A/Rs make is the 813 whp referenced above. Mind you, this was with 100-octane fuel with a RON of 96. With higher octane fuel, who knows? The car had crazy spool even with a Veilside intake manifold and in part because of the port and polish head work and HKS 264 cams. Likely as not, you would have to go with smaller HKS 2540 turbos to approximate the power of a typical 67 mm turbo. Of course, being smaller, they would spool even quicker than the off-the-shelf 2835s. One last point in conclusion. I grew up watching Porsche 935s in IMSA Group 5 racing (later GTP). The late Peter Gregg, in the old #59 Brumos 935, was the dominant driver of this era and was the first star driver to switch to Porsche's twin-turbo version of this car. Even though dyno tests showed the single turbo cars making the same power as the twin-turbo 935s, on the track, it was no contest. Gregg dominated so thoroughly in the L.A. Times 6-Hour Enduro at the old Riverside International Raceway (3.3-miles; 9 turns), all of his principal competition were forced to switch to the twin-turbo set-up. In speaking with him personally about the differences, he specifically spoke of the linearity of power delivery, reduced spool and being able to get on the power earlier and modulate the attitude of the car better (still not great) with the twin-turbo version versus the single. Unless outlawed by the rules, most teams that race in series where force induction is allowed invariably choose the twin-turbo configuration. When the power-generating potential of twins versus singles is the same, and everything else is equal (fuel, head work, intake, exhaust, etc.), the twin-turbo set-up will out perform the big single on the road and track. I did not intend my first post to be so long so thank you if you've read this far. Ken. Edited October 10, 2009 by KenHenderson (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen G Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 :goodpost:Now thats nice. Getting a post from the owner for prob the greatest supra in the world:salute: Big twins rule:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Thanks for the input Ken Much appreciated My dyno graph doesn't help too much either as the car was running low CR at that point. With the new engine the car is much more responsive low down. Ryan is remapping it soon and we will be doing some data logging on the road to get some comparisons to the dyno graphs. Will post the results when done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Reading through this is VERY interesting. I'd love to see the compound charging option once it has tested laid on that graph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkR Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 That was one hell of a first post. Welcome Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I generally agree with this statement. Counting the OEM twins, I have had four separate twin-turbo set-ups on Blackie, with three of the four set-ups running in parallel and three of the four set- Ken. Due what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Welcome Ken, hope you stick around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopgunTT Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Welcome Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 What a great read this thread turned out to be! Welcome to the site Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) Interesting thread.....for UK roads and a street car I struggle to understand why some strive for such extremes in power at the expense of traction on the road. Mine is a T61DBB pushing a mere 560 and its way more than plenty for a street car. Welcome to the Club Ken - seems like some of the members here have heard of you before. Perhaps you could be nominated for a Noble prize of some sort Edited October 10, 2009 by imi (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Interesting thread.....for UK roads and a street car I struggle to understand why some strive for such extremes in power at the expense of traction on the road. Mine is a T61DBB pushing a mere 560 and its way more than plenty for a street car. Welcome to the Club Ken - seems like some of the members here have heard of you before. Perhaps you could be nominated for a Noble prize of some sort In london it might be but on the roads round me im bored to death with mine, another 200bhp would be nice. I can understand why the yanks go for big power, they have the roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 In london it might be but on the roads round me im bored to death with mine, another 200bhp would be nice. How fast are you planning to stretch your car on UK public roads mind you - better not respond to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkR Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 In london it might be but on the roads round me im bored to death with mine That's because you're a lunatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 How fast are you planning to stretch your car on UK public roads Its not how fast you go, its how quick you get there:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Its not how fast you go, its how quick you get there:) whilst that is true, also worthwhile remembering whats been discussed in this thread about traction being a limiting factor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 whilst that is true, also worthwhile remembering whats been discussed in this thread about traction being a limiting factor Good tyres will sort that. I dont have any traction problems with 600bhp, Dry road and warm R888 tyres and i get zero wheel spin in every gear. For sure i can make it wheel spin with a dab of the clutch or trying to get the power on to early coming out of a bend but if you are expecting it then its no big deal. This morning i fitted a set of falken 452's, two reason, one being winter is coming and i wont get the most from the R888's and the other being i have a few dyno sessions coming up and the R888's melt on the dyno, Them falkens are one sh1t tyre, it lights them up every chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 it lights them up every chance. A lot of people run that tyre on here so I tried them out on an Merc E class and was not impressed. I think i will personally stick to Eagle F1s for as long as I can source them. R888s are supposed to be lovely, but not for my budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 In london it might be but on the roads round me im bored to death with mine, another 200bhp would be nice. I can understand why the yanks go for big power, they have the roads. Same here and you dont have to do stupid speeds to have a bit of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KenHenderson Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Guys and gals, Many thanks for the warm welcome. I'm pretty sure I should have been a member on this site earlier. JamieP and Lee are correct with respect to the roads here in America. Certainly, we have our London-style congestion and bumper-to-bumper road conditions in the highly urbanized areas, but, in our 3-million square miles, there are lots of roads where you can drive your Supra as God intended. As a community, we have lots experience in getting the power down on public streets and roads and there are many big-power APU cars driven on a very regular basis if not as DDs. As noted, I have the Race Logic Adjustable Traction on Blackie. In addition, I have 325/30/19 Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on 19 x 12 wheels in the rear so, unless I have turned up the boost and am deliberately trying to break the rear end loose, this set-up does a good job at containing the power of my car on wastegate boost (1.48 kg/cm^2; 737 whp) which is where she's at 90% of the time. Race Logic is my standard recommendation for anyone contemplating an APU street car. Don't leave home without it. Blackie, sorry, man. I didn't know there was a member on this forum with that name. It's also the name of my black car (Eau Rouge is the name of my red car), so no offense intended with my earlier comments. Ken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Guys and gals, Many thanks for the warm welcome. I'm pretty sure I should have been a member on this site earlier. It is good to see a member of such experience joining up here Blackie, sorry, man. I didn't know there was a member on this forum with that name. It's also the name of my black car (Eau Rouge is the name of my red car), so no offense intended with my earlier comments. Ken. Wouldn't pay much attention to Blackie, we dont (Just kidding Al, love ya really) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Get some pics of both the cars up please Ken:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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