Nic Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 When discussing this with Terry some time ago he mentioned something about the dbb being pointless on a BL T61. Diminishing returns and all that... It was Terry who recommend the GT35R (DBB) to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 It was Terry who recommend the GT35R (DBB) to me. Ive kinda decided on the AR, 0.81 / 0.82 on a T61 or perhaps a GT35R (whatever is a straight bolt-on without any fabrication involved). I might just go DBB, will speak to the BL guys tomorrow & Mark @ Pheonix. DBB- - quicker spool - more power early on, more boost early on and this results in quicker acceleration. - allegedly reliability issues. - apparently heats up the water by 20 odd degrees. non-DBB - slightly slower spool, hence acceleration - more reliable / longer lasting - allegedly - doesnt heat up the water. imi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 DBB on a T61 with a cast manifold would be insane if not on the verge of surging. Ryan`s T61 produced 566hp and my 60-1 produced 560hp, both at SRR and both running approx 1.4bar, Ryan was running a tubular manifold and I have a cast unit. The T61 does have some top end edge over the 60-1 as you could run slightly higher boost, possibly 1.6bar where as my 60-1 is pretty much doing all it can within its efficiency range which for me is more than enough. We had to setup speed base boost to get traction and thats with R888 tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 For comparisons of various turbos check out this link :- http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=128998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 I cant remember why despite the very impressive power figures, Ryan's plot has so little area under the curve......the T61 should perform a lot better than that throughout the range. I havent seen a comparison of a T61 DBB vs GT35 vs T61 vs 60-1 for the same setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Ryans graph has different scale across the bottom as it starts in the lower rev range therefore stretching out the curve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 It's more a question of whether the dbb cartridge is VFM on a 61. The 61 has more top end than a GT35R. I think for 90% of driving (well my type of driving) the GT35R was the perfect turbo. There were times I wanted more top end, but when I eventually put a GT4088R on the car, I really missed the urgency of the GT35R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Ive kinda decided on the AR, 0.81 / 0.82 on a T61 or perhaps a GT35R (whatever is a straight bolt-on without any fabrication involved). The HKS single setup kit and Garrett GT35R (Garrett make the turbos for HKS) would require no modification, as it is designed to fit a RHD Japanese Supra. I know the PHR IC pipes need to be modified to clear the steering rack on a RHD Supra. The HKS kit includes absolutely everything needed, the kit also recirculates the wastegate, which is a lot better if you're doing a lot of urban driving; a screamer pipe draws a lot of attention when the wastegate opens! Here is a pic of the actual HKS kit for the Supra, not everything is shown http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1622/11003at001jza80t04zturbrq3.jpg Another pic of the HKS kit showing everything it includes, this isn't the Supra kit though. http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/turbo/turbinekit/waste_sp/img/waste_sp_image.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 Ryans graph has different scale across the bottom as it starts in the lower rev range therefore stretching out the curve still, the gradients of ryan's graph arent impressive compared to what your car is pushing.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Thats a nice looking kit Nic, didnt know HKS did a GT35R kit I thought people sourced them seperately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 still, the gradients of ryan's graph arent impressive compared to what your car is pushing.......... A lot of that will be down to a cast manifold compared to a tubular manifold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwayne Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 how much does that kit go for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Thats a nice looking kit Nic, didnt know HKS did a GT35R kit I thought people sourced them seperately. They don't, the smallest kit they do for the Supra is the T-04Z, however I can supply the full kit minus the turbo and then supply the GT35R separately. Just wish I'd realised this when I did mine, as it would have saved a lot of money and hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 For someone wanting a small single on a tubular manifold this looks like a good option. I am not sure how many cast manifolds are available these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 My only issue is the grade of Stainless used by HKS on their manifold, assuming they havent upgraded to 321? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 For someone wanting a small single on a tubular manifold this looks like a good option. I like the fact the HKS kit recirculates the wastegate back into the downpipe. I really need to get mine modified to do the same, I got some attention from a copper the other day when I passed giving it big WOT, got out of there PDQ before he had the chance to turn around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 The wastegate routing would be a big selling point for me as its a real pita having to get one custom made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share Posted March 9, 2008 The wastegate routing would be a big selling point for me as its a real pita having to get one custom made. is it really that noisy without it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 is it really that noisy without it? It is loud yes, if you ever want to track the car then its a major prob as you can only go on noisy unrestricted days which cost more and are rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 is it really that noisy without it? When the wastegate opens, you basically have 3L engine with an 8" long exhaust pipe (the screamer pipe), it is VERY loud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel lane Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 We recirc our installs if required from the client . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Here is Ryans T61 dyno running 1.35bar with HKS 256in and 264ex cams. - http://www.zen85016.zen.co.uk/gallery/supradyno/ryang566hp-256in-264ex-1.35bar.jpg Here is my 60-1 dyno running HKS 264in and 264ex cams. - http://www.zen85016.zen.co.uk/gallery/supradyno/wezdyno090108.JPG Wez, just had a study of your torque curve and it is slightly better than mine virtually all the way up the rev range and mine runs UK cams ! so i'm impressed , now what worries me is i have 256/264 cams to fit, looking at Ryans (please dont take offence) but its horrendous for a T61, is there something else going on here ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Garrett GT35R in256/ex264 as a comparison. http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3527/542hpdyno1aa5.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Wez, just had a study of your torque curve and it is slightly better than mine virtually all the way up the rev range and mine runs UK cams ! so i'm impressed , now what worries me is i have 256/264 cams to fit, looking at Ryans (please dont take offence) but its horrendous for a T61, is there something else going on here ? Was Ryan not on a XS power manifold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Wez, just had a study of your torque curve and it is slightly better than mine virtually all the way up the rev range and mine runs UK cams ! so i'm impressed , now what worries me is i have 256/264 cams to fit, looking at Ryans (please dont take offence) but its horrendous for a T61, is there something else going on here ? No offence taking mate There was a slight boost leak i found in the end and i had only spent 40 mins on the map then as had some spare time on the dyno but i think you have got to remember that the scaling makes it look worse espically when you compare it to Wes's. You need to get yours on a Different dyno though Paul to compare to Wes's plot as if Rob wilds cars was quicker than yours at 0.9bar then Wes's will make yours look like its standing still chap I mapped both and have not been in a supra yet that is as quick on the road. The big 700+ cars i have done are fast on the motorway but i honestly feel Wes's car will beat most of them to 130mph. We will see at marham though I hear on the grape vine though that you are getting rid of the signal fudger for a standalone Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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