BMW and Toyota tie-up for new Supra?

[Chris Bailey]

450bhp, Good looks, Good GT car, Lightweight, More Space

 

And they are halfway there!

 

Oh and better MPG!

[David P]

They must remember to design it with ornamental back seats and a boot which can have the useful stuff thrown away then permanently filled with expensive heavy stuff on display in the back window.

[Scott]

My worst nightmare Think of the new skills I'd have to learn if I was basically driving a BMW:

Tailgating

Roadraging

Aggressive driving in general

Undertaking

Charging up 30mph bus lane at 60mph+ then barging back into the queue with no indicating

Driving while facebooking about how awesome I am for having a BMW

Wearing mirrored shades

Refusing to believe women don't find all the above attractive

Refusing to believe any other car could possibly be even close in any factor

Telling everyone how my diesel engine is the best engine evar and more powerful than the strong atomic force itself

 

*shudder*

 

 

 

I'm slowly making my way through that list, it's taken a lot of work but I'm getting there. Also, it's really annoying that people still find it OK to use the BMW lane on the motorway. I reckon the police should start enforcing that next, some right ignorant feckers on the road nowadays.

 

 

Anyway... BMW? I'm a bit torn really. If they took the F10 M5 engine (V8 TT) and coupled that with a well balanced GT chassis then it could be a real winner and I'd be in. 360hp though? That's the new GT4, not the new Supra. Personally I don't want them to go AWD but if they want to compete with the likes of the GTR then they are going to have to. I'm guessing this is where the discussion will be though.

 

Dream MKV for me, with the collaboration, would be....

 

S63 V8 TT

RWD with good diff/drivetrain.

I would love a manual but I'd be happy with a good semi (ooeerrr). Would need to be proper though as the flappy paddles I have on my car are just a gimmick (too slow to change).

Well balanced like the current Supra (that'll be the hard part as I'm guessing the engine is a bit heavy).

All the toys and luxury of modern GT cruisers.

 

Taking the above into consideration I don't think it'll be very affordable, if done right. Lots of corners will need to be cut to keep it under 60k IMO.

[Kirk]

Toyota/BMW derived engine, straight 6 or v8 turbo, coupled to BMW driveline, preferably a manual box as an option all dropped into a Toyota designed body/chassis.

 

That's the way things should be.

[Gaz6002]

Some very strange opinions in this thread.

 

Anyway, why do people think four-wheel drive is the way forwards? Not a chance I'd buy a car with four driven wheels.

[Scott]

Some very strange opinions in this thread.

 

Anyway, why do people think four-wheel drive is the way forwards? Not a chance I'd buy a car with four driven wheels.

 

It's not the way forward for me personally, it's just the way forward to keep up with the joneses.

 

BMW are adding their AWD systems into the saloons now, or they plan to at least. The GTR is clearing up awards thanks to it's setup. Not to mention the Veyron and most (if not all) Lambos nowadays.

 

Probably more AWD cars now than there are RWD to be honest.

[Gaz6002]

It's not the way forward for me personally, it's just the way forward to keep up with the joneses.

 

BMW are adding their AWD systems into the saloons now, or they plan to at least. The GTR is clearing up awards thanks to it's setup. Not to mention the Veyron and most (if not all) Lambos nowadays.

 

Probably more AWD cars now than there are RWD to be honest.

 

Yes, I've driven an x-Drive 3 Series. It was unremarkable to say the least. Felt like a fake Audi, which is almost the worst praise I've given to a car.

 

Ditto Lambos actually - I don't like the way they drive because they feel like big Audis.

 

Even the R8 leaves me totally cold. So does the GTR and even the Nismo Juke R.

 

A proper driver's car will be rear driven, and that's that.

 

I've yet to drive any four-wheel drive car that really hits the spot, and I've driven 99% of the cars you can buy right now.

[Scott]

Doesn't do it for me either, that's why I lasted 6 months with an Evo V RS (it was for sale for a month too) and yet still rave about my old MR2 Tubby.

[sdistc]

I, for one, am not too impressed with all the "co-operation" going around with Toyota, because it seems to result in compromising the performance that I look for in their vehicles (a 2 litre Boxer motor for the GT86? Even a VTEC motor would have been better, in my opinion, and I despise the VTEC Honda fans).

 

Nevertheless, Toyota has always been more concerned with "selling" cars rather than making amazing machinery (and yes, I am aware that the GT2000, JZA80 and LFA were statement cars) so it makes economic sense for them to share development costs during this time of financial turmoil (especially given that new buyers seem more interested in how "green" a car is than how well it performs for a given C02 production band). Of course, after watching the Koenigsegg video on camless engines, and their focus on high power without environmental compromise, in the coming years we might very well see a proper sports GT with 500-600hp and still being relatively green.

[Gaz6002]

I, for one, am not too impressed with all the "co-operation" going around with Toyota, because it seems to result in compromising the performance that I look for in their vehicles (a 2 litre Boxer motor for the GT86? Even a VTEC motor would have been better, in my opinion, and I despise the VTEC Honda fans).

 

The reason the Boxer is good is because its centre of gravity is far lower than a relatively tall conventional four-cylinder engine, which means the GT86/BRZ/FR-S handles incredibly well.

[j_jza80]

I've yet to drive any four-wheel drive car that really hits the spot, and I've driven 99% of the cars you can buy right now.

 

2 involving 4wd cars I can immediately think of are the Delta Integrale, and the Classic Impreza STi Type R.

[Gaz6002]

2 involving 4wd cars I can immediately think of are the Delta Integrale, and the Classic Impreza STi Type R.

 

I disagree having driven both, neither left me thinking I'd rather have one over a decent RWD car.

[Bobbeh]

I like the idea.. although I don't like the Supra name being affiliated with it. 400BHP engine with a 100bhp hybrid drive train would be fun imho. RWD of course

[j_jza80]

I disagree having driven both, neither left me thinking I'd rather have one over a decent RWD car.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you. I was just stating that those two are probably the 'cream of the crop' when it comes to involving, satisfying AWD cars.

 

However, while RWD usually makes for a better steer, some FWD cars are right up there for driving enjoyment. Think 205 GTi, Classic Mini Cooper, Mk1 and MK2 Golf GTi, DC2 Integra, Corrado.

[JamieP]

Some very strange opinions in this thread.

 

Anyway, why do people think four-wheel drive is the way forwards? Not a chance I'd buy a car with four driven wheels.

 

£40k budget, what high performance road car would you buy then?

Edited September 2, 2013 by JamieP (see edit history)

[Scott]

Not a great deal to choose from really.

 

Porker (911 or Cayman S)

BMW M Series (Older 5, newer 3)

Jag XK V8 Supercharged or a high end XF

Big silly looking yank tank

Fast merc, big AMG or the like

Maserati

 

Personally I don't know if I could see past the GTR with that sort of budget. The new M5 (if within budget) would possibly turn my head, not a big porker fan and none of the others really do it for me.

[Tony]

Just no to the BMW thing, Japs are so much better all round

[Gaz6002]

£40k budget, what high performance road car would you buy then?

 

For the road I'd likely end up with a quick Merc like a C63 estate, or perhaps a Cayman. Even the new Boxster appeals, but I'm not sure I'd be able to live with the practicality sacrifice of a Porsche.

 

The reality is that I'm not sure I'd end up spending that amount on a road car though. I'd probably buy something smart like a 3 Series Coupe for the road and spend the rest on racing

[tkddav3]

either build a proper mk5 supra or dont bother... why tarnish the name with this bmw hybrid rubbish, if it was the way forward with fast road cars nissan would of done the same with the gtr

[j_jza80]

either build a proper mk5 supra or dont bother... why tarnish the name with this bmw hybrid rubbish, if it was the way forward with fast road cars nissan would of done the same with the gtr

 

It's not the same though. The Supra was built to be a reliable, daily GT with Super car rivaling performance. The Nissan GTR has always been about setting records, race records with the R32, road and track records ever since.

[sdistc]

The reason the Boxer is good is because its centre of gravity is far lower than a relatively tall conventional four-cylinder engine, which means the GT86/BRZ/FR-S handles incredibly well.

 

Thanks, mate.. I hadn't realised that it was as significant. But, as there are only a few manufacturers that produce boxer motors, and they don't seem the preferred engine configuration in motor racing, was it really the best engine (hypothetically) to get the most out of the chassis? Or am I thinking like a Supra driver, and that the platform needs another 100+ hp to be relevant as "fast".

[Gaz6002]

Thanks, mate.. I hadn't realised that it was as significant. But, as there are only a few manufacturers that produce boxer motors, and they don't seem the preferred engine configuration in motor racing, was it really the best engine (hypothetically) to get the most out of the chassis? Or am I thinking like a Supra driver, and that the platform needs another 100+ hp to be relevant as "fast".

 

I think there's serious amounts of applications for Boxer engines in motorsport. I mean, all those 911s? They're everywhere at most race meetings.

 

Furthermore, my single-seat race car uses a Boxer.

 

For decent handling you want as low a centre of gravity as possible, and since the engine weighs so much, setting it as low as possible will have quite an effect

 

The GT86 does need more power though. That's coming soon on hotter models from both Toyota and Subaru.

[Guest h2jz]

It's not the same though. The Supra was built to be a reliable, daily GT with Super car rivaling performance. The Nissan GTR has always been about setting records, race records with the R32, road and track records ever since.

 

Setting records is what sells cars today. Why would anybody pay 50-70k when buying a sports gt for a car that's much slower than a GT-R?

 

If Toyota use the turbocharged inline 6 (N55 engine) found in the new M3/M4, which will come 450hp stock, with a couple of hybrid motors, it shouldn't have a problem competing with the GT-R. The only problem they have to work around with is weight from the batteries. I would have preferred the older way, powerful engine, manual and lightweight chassis, but lets face it, hybrids sell and with the amount of success Toyota has had with their hybrids in motorsport, it will most likely be a hybrid.

[sdistc]

I think there's serious amounts of applications for Boxer engines in motorsport. I mean, all those 911s? They're everywhere at most race meetings.

 

Furthermore, my single-seat race car uses a Boxer.

 

For decent handling you want as low a centre of gravity as possible, and since the engine weighs so much, setting it as low as possible will have quite an effect

 

Oh I understand the importance of centre of gravity being low, but I was just questioning the use of Boxer motors in general. Porsches are very common in racing, yes, but I was more referring to the general trend in the various forms of motorsport (F1, Touring Cars, NASCAR, WRC etc) in which I don't recall the Boxer motor being the preference. Yes Subaru did well in rallying, yes Porsche does well in racing generally.. but why do no other manufacturers use them if they have such high positives?

[Gaz6002]

Oh I understand the importance of centre of gravity being low, but I was just questioning the use of Boxer motors in general. Porsches are very common in racing, yes, but I was more referring to the general trend in the various forms of motorsport (F1, Touring Cars, NASCAR, WRC etc) in which I don't recall the Boxer motor being the preference. Yes Subaru did well in rallying, yes Porsche does well in racing generally.. but why do no other manufacturers use them if they have such high positives?

 

A lot of it is down to packaging and homologation too - there's a huge amount of investment needed for high-volume engine manufacture and so it makes sense to use powerplants also used in road cars, and in many race series it's a regulation.