Supra Handling...????

[Keith C]

So true I am changing back to my 17" next week. Handling and 17" on a Supra is a great mix IMO.

 

I believe that the Lexus 18's are also a good wheel choice for the Supra.

[SkyJawa]

Chiefgroover...This also was one of my choices.(I had a R33gtr lined up)..BUT...After much research and many,many telephone calls,I found out,Thay spin the bigend bearing on number 5 cylinder...And needing a £6500 engine rebuild...I phoned the experts to ask when i could expect this senario to show its evil head...The reply was.....Quote-Its a lottery,The more the engine was tuned,The more it happens....Quote-its not bad in the GTS models standard...More common on the GTR`s.Becouse of the BHP increase...And the expectations of this happening goes up as the BHP does....This put me off the skyline....As one specialist had 6 Skyline engines in his garage requiring engine re-builds...And to be truthfull.....I cannot play a £6500 lottery...

 

As stated..This is the words from "Specialists"..Not me...

 

I could`nt take the risk......Kev.

 

LMFAO!! I'm sorry but what a complete and utter load of crap!! No specialists such as Rod Bell, Abbey Motorport, Rising Sun Performance etc etc would tell you such cobblers.....

There is no common failing. Very few standard blocks have let go.

And a £6.5k rebuild? whats that with fecking gold and titanium parts??!!!!!

 

You take a risk with any engine you modify.............

[Digsy]

You miss my point completely. How the car is in or out of grip is two different subjects as many drivers dont want to break traction, other love to drift, I just wanted to clarify the question. I made an "overview"

of what they terms mean. My original source of info was the descriptions of Howard Walker who has reviewed 100's of cars. Maybe he is way off the mark, what do you think?

Who has torque steer in a RWD car? not a big issue IMO, In FWD, now that's a different story..............

Without wanting to get into an argument over semantics, you did say that handling is how the car drives beyond the grip limit, and this thread is about how the Supra handles. I don't believe that everyone here is talking about how easy the car is to control when the back end is hanging out, and I personally don't agree with the definitions, even if they do come from a motoring journalist / editor with many years' experience, and who sits on the European Car of the Year jury.

 

TBH I'm not sure that there even is an industry standard definition of what is and isn't good handling because it is so subjective and diffres from car to car, but I expect that if I went over to our Ride and Handling department and asked about then I would get a much more "wholistic" definition which encompassed not only the objective technical characteristics of the car (steering response, dive, squat, roll, yaw rate, etc.) but how these were communicated to the driver while they were actually going on. I don't get t spend too much time over there because I'm not a chassis Engineer, but that's certainly the impression I get from chatting to them, anyway.

 

To concentrate purely on roadholding and then saying that handling is everything beyond grip seems very restrictive to me, and it misses the whole regime of handling approaching the limit of grip, and also how the car behaves when the car is not breaking traction. How easily can it change direction? How easiy can it stop changing direction? What is the weight transfer like when accelerating / braking / turning? It also ignores factors like throttle response, braking response, chassis stiffness, steering feel and a myriad of other factors that connect the driver to the car to the road, and replaces them with "am I sliding or not?" Sorry, I don't buy it. In fact reading this back to myself it does sound like a very "journalist-y" way of rating a car's behaviour. I've been in several cars being driven in anger by our test drivers and, unless they are deliberately p*ssing about or showing off, while there is plenty of tyre screeching there's very little of what you might call "drifting" on a well-handling car being driven quickly around a circuit. Watching a journo slip-sliding around an airfield says more to me about the airfield than the car: It's big and flat and if you or the car messes it up it doesn't really matter, but try to do the same thing on a road....

 

Example: I brought a Pontiac Sunfire (US model) home from work one day. Near my house there is a horrible rise in the road with a right hand bend that starts at the crest. I went over it in the Sunfire and turned the wheels at the top while the car was still a little bit light. The tyres never broke their grip with the road, but the car gave me absolutely no idea where it was going to end up. It actually felt like the wheels and suspension were going around the corrner but me and the body were heading straight on into the field. My Supra, by comparison, gives a little bit of a predictable skip to the left as I crest the rise and turn in, and then bites in and takes the corner nicely.

 

So the Sunfire definately held the road, but did it "handle"? Well by my definition it didn't because it scared the hell out of me while I was doing a manouver that the car was clearly technically capable of. It certainly didn't make me want to try to find out what it felt like beyond the limit of grip. On the other hand, my Supra doesn't hold the road when I turn in because the tyres always skip a little bit, but this is completely predictable and feels totally secure. I'd say the Supra handles better than the Sunfire.

 

On the flipside I have a friend who drives a Nissan Silvia with a welded up diff. Does this hold the road? Well on a dry surface in a straight line, yes. Going round anything more than a slight corner and one wheel starts to skip about and the back end comes out. Once it's sliding, it's great of course. In fact he gave me a lift to my girlfriend's the other night because it was the ony car we knew woud be safe in the snow! In the industry standard / run of the mill / subject of this thread scale, though, I don't think that anyone would claim this to be a car that handled well.

 

As for the torque steer thing, yes I know it isn't a problem RWD cars (or FWD cars with an intermediate driveshaft, for that matter). I was just listing general characteristics which I thought lay in between the two definitions you gave.

 

Anyway - looks like I've done a Sorry!

[SkyJawa]

Bloody hell mate that must've took some writing!!!

[SkyJawa]

You up the risks with any modded car, but I dont think the stock skyline engine can take the abuse a Supras can.

 

Exactly mate, you take risks as you say.

 

But no, I personally don't think a GTR block is as strong standard as a Supra block is. The GTR is probably pushing it at 500bhp on stock internals, and luck of the draw if it goes pop or not.

I've heard a Supra can take around 600bhp on stock internals.

 

You have not much to fear on 400bhp (Stage 1) equivalent to around BPU on a Supra. The only factor here is the stock turbos on the R33 and R32 GTR are ceramic internals and only capable of 1bar boost max, the R34's are slightly different and capable of 1.2. 1 bar is the limit but required on a GTR to get to 400bhp. Obviously they aren't rated for it and do give up (same as a Supra's), most its fine, new turbos - steel internals and your away. The odd one it takes the engine with it so rebuild and turbos........

 

I think the reason you hear about more Skyline rebuilds than supras is the common tune for both cars is 500-550bhp which is pushing the Skyline but only coming up to the Supra's limit.

 

However, the engine isn't the weak link its the internals only. As we all know, tuned properly both are in the same league with 1000bhp+ capable on both.

 

But the Supra's still need something to put them on top, cmon lads, Skylines have be cleaning up TOTB for too long

[dangerous brain]

Most normal peoples problem with gauging the handling of any vehicle of this nature is the fact that evrything happens so much faster and at higher speeds than any other vehicle they have ever driven. The drivers that have ventured forth and proclaimed the wonders of the supra's handling/road holding abilities have all at least gone to the trouble of track daying their car or are experienced racing drivers.

 

Its very easy to drive a car quickly on the road and not actually realise how fast you really are going. In say a standard hot hatch you may pile into a corner and the corner will feel a certain way, You can then hop in a supra and whilst piling into the same corner do it that much faster to still get the same corner feel. Not so experienced drivers may not realise how much quicker they are going in the supra for that same feel. Consequently when the car does adversely react it does it at a higher speed so things go wrong alot quicker than it would in the slower vehicle.

 

Alot of people that say that supra's handle badly will more than likely either be passengers that can't see how fast the car is going when it began missbehaving, or drivers that were concentrating on their driving the road to notice how fast they were actually going. I often times drive quickly through a bend and couldn't tell you what speed I went through it at. Theres also the type of driver that is so wary of the cars biting ability or reputation that they don't even try and push it and subsequently say it handles badly.

 

In my experience the car does indeed handle very well. I put my N/A around both Silverstone and Castle Coombe and was impressed with its level of grip. I tend to drive fairly aggressively on the road as well. The TT is a bit of a scary beast at times, that power can be very intimidating even for someone with a devil may care attitude like mine, its mainly the power delivery that I have an issue with especially when not driving in manu mode.

[kevo]

LMFAO!! I'm sorry but what a complete and utter load of crap!! No specialists such as Rod Bell, Abbey Motorport, Rising Sun Performance etc etc would tell you such cobblers.....

There is no common failing. Very few standard blocks have let go.

And a £6.5k rebuild? whats that with fecking gold and titanium parts??!!!!!

 

You take a risk with any engine you modify.............

 

Why the hell did you think i posted this then......?????After ringing these people for advice......?????????

What i would suggest...Is ask for yourself........Like i did....

[kevo]

Why the hell did you think i posted this then......?????After ringing these people for advice......?????????

What i would suggest...Is ask for yourself........Like i did....

Before you call anyone`s post rubbish...I tell people what the SPECIALIST tell me.....I dont post Fiction.....

[kevo]

Before you call anyone`s post rubbish...I tell people what the SPECIALIST tell me.....I dont post Fiction.....

Whilst your on the phone...Why not ask them..How much for a rebuild.....????????

[Homer]

Whilst your on the phone...Why not ask them..How much for a rebuild.....????????

 

Several people who are very experienced in Supra, Skyline and other cars have taken quite some time to give you their opinion on Supra mechanics & handling, etc. If you want to listen to some unknown 'persons' over people who have expertise in these cars then go ahead.... your loss.

 

And please stop quoting yourself, it makes you look like the person who doesn't known what he's talking about.

[250horses]

Guys.....Can you just reasure me on the handling on the Supra...I`m getting conflicting opinions on this...(Mostly on NON supra owners i must add)..That thay handle like blancmange......Whilst,I do understand,This car is powerfull with only rear wheel drive....So,Yes this a recipe for entertainment--Shall we say....HOw stable are these cars on corners Please.....???????Kev.

 

Back to the basic question

Heres whatcars view - basicly soops stick like sh*t to a blanket in the dry - forget it in the wet

 

Bewinged monster may look weird but there's no arguing with it's ability. The sheer speed and punch, limpet-like grip, handling agility and specification put it in another class from its forebear. Few sold and prematurely killed off by emission restrictions

[Chiefgroover]

Digsy, thats a long winded post. What are you trying to prove to yourself?

The guy asked a fairly basic question, I tried to clarify exactly what he want ed to know and you went into rave mode to try and make yourself look smart.

I can drive my car to the absolute limits,. I know how it handles very well, and if you want to teach me something about that very subject I suggest you do it in person, vehicle at hand @ a track. I'll be most interested in what you have to say. You bore me yyyaawwnnnnn

[dangerous brain]

Yeah like what he just said. It does handle very very well. In the dry it will amaze you how well it grips. But and heres the thing:- with the turbo models it does have a tendency to bite the hand that feeds it too much gas. This tendency scares alot of people and that lack of confidence promotes a bad handling image. The N/A versions don't have this problem and as such might be considered a better handling car for it.

 

To sum it up the TT supra does indeed handle well and not at all like a blancmange but you do have to take the time and care to learn how to drive it.

[Chiefgroover]

with the turbo models it does have a tendency to bite the hand that feeds it too much gas.

 

How true, carefully learning the right foot technique is essential, unlike a N/A.

I often have to let the pedal back a little to stop things getting too wild.

[250horses]

How true, carefully learning the right foot technique is essential, unlike a N/A.

I often have to let the pedal back a little to stop things getting too wild.

 

Agreed, I could chuck my NA into any corner at virtually any speed.

The TT can be a beast, especially if you are at the apex or a corner and floor the pedal at 3200 rpm - she will loose it !! Way too much power delivery

I am still learning how to drive the TT and now never floor the pedal unless my front wheels are in a straight line.

 

Charlie AKA: WUSSY

[kevo]

Several people who are very experienced in Supra, Skyline and other cars have taken quite some time to give you their opinion on Supra mechanics & handling, etc. If you want to listen to some unknown 'persons' over people who have expertise in these cars then go ahead.... your loss.

 

And please stop quoting yourself, it makes you look like the person who doesn't known what he's talking about.

 

HOMER....And to the people who gave me the info...I am very gratefull....

 

As to the"Unknown people" i`m being accused of asking....These are the TOP Guys on the Skyline scene in britain.....So would`nt you say thay have quite a bit of "Expertise"In these cars..Thay not only service,import,race,Rebuild,R/Road,And everything else to do with Skylines....Infact..Thay are the ONLY guys that people contact.....

And,After,hours talking to these guys for their "Expert" advice,Then coming on the forum...To pass that advice to other guys..And been told,Its utter rubbish.....When,It was only 3 weeks ago i was told by these guys myself....How would you feel....SO to answer your question....NO ONE is pulling anyone down,Refusing any advice..And being ungratefull for it.....But as you have done...Jumped in with both feet..not knowing all the facts..And Jumping stright to conclusions.....

 

I must stress again,My comment on the skyline was not one of preferance..But on good solid advice from the pro`s....And,Why not yourself give richard bell a ring of rising sun performance,And just ask yourself...If the skyline Rb26 has no5 issues in turning a bearing ....Becouse he has some engines with just over 20-30k miles thats waiting rebuilds......The prices that were also supposed to be utter rubbish were from abbey motorsport...Are thay also UnKNOWN......?????

 

 

Kev.

[Ian C]

Digsy, thats a long winded post. What are you trying to prove to yourself?

The guy asked a fairly basic question, I tried to clarify exactly what he want ed to know and you went into rave mode to try and make yourself look smart.

I can drive my car to the absolute limits,. I know how it handles very well, and if you want to teach me something about that very subject I suggest you do it in person, vehicle at hand @ a track. I'll be most interested in what you have to say. You bore me yyyaawwnnnnn

 

Haha classic post of someone who's been seriously outclassed. Here is a large amount of effort put in by someone in the industry on the discussion of "what is handling", after you said "handling is when you are sliding around corners", and you tell him "it's dull and he's boring and yawny yawn, cos I drive round tracks, I'm a hero". Righto

 

-Ian

[250horses]

Very good point Ian , Digsy keep up with the informative un-biased threads

[Keith C]

Haha classic post of someone who's been seriously outclassed.

 

Heh - tell you what, Mycroft would never have let himself fall into that trap. I kinda expect everyone to be up to Mycroft's standard when it comes to this sort of thing, but I forget that most are just not capable of it.

[SkyJawa]

Whilst your on the phone...Why not ask them..How much for a rebuild.....????????

 

LMAO - newbie with bee in your bonnet.

 

Unlike you, I actually OWN one. One that has been to Abbey and I know Richard @ Rising Sun very well, paid him 2k just a month or so ago for all sorts of bits thanks. Rebuilds depend very much on whats required. 6500 is at the top end. And you can ship an N1 engine from Japan for little more than that............

[Digsy]

Digsy, thats a long winded post. What are you trying to prove to yourself?

The guy asked a fairly basic question, I tried to clarify exactly what he want ed to know and you went into rave mode to try and make yourself look smart.

I can drive my car to the absolute limits,. I know how it handles very well, and if you want to teach me something about that very subject I suggest you do it in person, vehicle at hand @ a track. I'll be most interested in what you have to say. You bore me yyyaawwnnnnn

Right-ho. In nearly 4000 posts I've never got embroiled in a full blown argument on here and I'm not going to start now. You gave an definition of handling which I disagreed with. My post was an attempt to back up my thinking by citing a few examples and experiences. I certainly wasn't trying to prove anything to myself or make myself look smart.

 

If you can drive your car to the limits then good for you. I don't believe I ever implied that you couldn't. I have no desire to meet you at a track to teach you anything because I'm the first to admit that I can't drive my car to the limit, and I don't believe that I ever implied that either - quite the opposite in fact.

 

None of that, however, means I can't have an opinion on what ride and handling is and isn't. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Terminator]

Guys.....Can you just reasure me on the handling on the Supra...I`m getting conflicting opinions on this...(Mostly on NON supra owners i must add)..That thay handle like blancmange......Whilst,I do understand,This car is powerfull with only rear wheel drive....So,Yes this a recipe for entertainment--Shall we say....HOw stable are these cars on corners Please.....???????Kev.

 

LOL at this thread:dummy:

 

Hi Kev,

 

 

Having never tried to drive a blancmange I am not sure I am qualified to comment in this thread, unlike some of your would be advisors. Now sheds that another matter and for another thread.

 

 

I have driven MKIV TT’s on the track and fast roads for over four and a half years so know a little more that people who have just read a few articles.

 

 

In stock form of TT, AFAIK, there are three types of shocks UK Toyota spec, JDM toyota , JDM Blistien’s not sure if Tein was a factory option in Japan. Not sure how many different types of spring there are but I driven cars all three shock types three, but as Bob said it does bite and give good grip, but personally based upon the two UK cars I have driven (test drives so not sure of condition) their suspension too soft for my liking. The JDM standard suspension is a bit firmer than the UK set up and gives the car more feel and feed back. The Blistien set up is even better and makes the car feel very secure in the corners. With good tires there is plenty of feel at the rear and unless you are careless and suddenly unleash extra torque by the overzealous use of the throttle around the second turbo kick in point, feed back at the edge of the grip limit is good. However it takes some time to become confident that you can control it. I have only ever driven one Tein equipped car and the coil overs were wound down a bit too low. But it gripped very well and gave good feel at the edge of traction bit it was a bit hard.

 

 

Beyond this there are countless variations, but a modified Bilstien and Chris Wilson custom springs suspension set up is considered by many to be the best and gives excellent feed back and control on the road and track.

 

 

If you add Race Logic Traction control to the package any driver errors or unexpected surface coating or changes should not have devastating consequences.

 

 

All of the above assumes the car is on good quality properly inflated rubber.

 

 

The MKIV handles well for a fairly heavy RWD 300+bhp RWD car. But treat it with respect as it will not suffer fools gladly and too many new owners find that out the hard way.

[Syed Shah]

I'm sorry mate, but if thats the case they couldn't drive for toffee or had their car setup incredibly wrongly.

 

My old scoob would have p!ssed all over my supra in outright handling and grip round the b road/roundabout type affair - only car thats ever cornered better/faster that I've been in was an Evo.

 

 

 

That is most interesting given the number of Imprezas that have been beaten on roundabout enrty/exit and corner speed on the MK roundabouts.

 

Didn't you crash your Supra? Perhaps you could take your Scoob closer to the limits than your Supra, does not mean it was the better handling car.

 

 

FWIW, in my opinion, the Supra was one weakspot: The vague and over assisted power steering. It gives little proper feedback, and requires you to know the corner well, rather than relying on feedback as much.

Otherwise, it is great: Can take a corner amazingly quick prior to breaking loose, which it does in a steady way, combined with good brakes, it really is good.

[Terminator]

FWIW, in my opinion, the Supra was one weakspot: The vague and over assisted power steering. It gives little proper feedback, and requires you to know the corner well, rather than relying on feedback as much.

Otherwise, it is great: Can take a corner amazingly quick prior to breaking loose, which it does in a steady way, combined with good brakes, it really is good.

Totally agree Syed, on familiar terrirtory I too have taken a few scoobies and 4x4 cossies in the twisties. I have seen them scrub off more speed before a tight set of left rights, gained on them through the bends and taken them on the way out. Or they have had a go and been slower through the corners when behind. When I dont know the road I tend to take it easier. RL does help though.

[kevo]

LMAO - newbie with bee in your bonnet.

 

Unlike you, I actually OWN one. One that has been to Abbey and I know Richard @ Rising Sun very well, paid him 2k just a month or so ago for all sorts of bits thanks. Rebuilds depend very much on whats required. 6500 is at the top end. And you can ship an N1 engine from Japan for little more than that............

 

Skyjawa......I can see by you post that you own one mate....And in no way....Was i pulling anyone`s car down in particular...I was just giving the guy,The info i had been given by these experts....And,All of it is true....I am not in anyway,Out to cause anyone anywhere any arguments....Ok,i admit..I got hot under the collar,This was only becouse..What Truthfull advice that was given me.Was just written off as rubbish,,I thought the advice.."COULD" ..save someone ,A great amout of money at some time...At least it gives people something else to check before thay buy this supercar......

I feel this info priceless...And the info all the guys can give me on the supra "Priceless"..And personally,Cannot thank people enough for this advice...Hence the extra thank you at the end of ALL answers given to me on my questions...Becouse i appreciate the time people take to reply for me.....

 

And i hope you,Will give me your experiance with your knowledge on the Supra front..And put all this behind us....And,lets help each other like forums are noted for......

 

Kev.