totally accept all that paul i have a T61 and am using a SAFC and ITC to controll it with 550's, its getting set up shortly by a reputable tuner off this board, the reason i chose this "old school" route was because i have not read much positve on this board (do a search) on ecu's and e-manages and want to keep it simple, i realise i would make more power from a well set up e-manage (is there such a thing yet ?) but how much more power, 10 horse WOW, would the meagre power gain at my state of tune warrant it, and as for "do it right or not at all" comes across a bit elitist, like the guys who buy all there bits seperate, from the states or on the cheap have no right to,we dont all have pots of money fella, but love our supes probably more than the rich kids with "loadsamoney"