paul mac Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well i've had another red wine induced e-bay moment (see 24 pot brembo for my last) seriously, i have been wanting to do something trick with the intake for quite a while and my original plan was a dual stage inlet involving a set of 50mm "short" runners and 35mm "long" runners with a set of control flaps but although i think this would still work the complexity has put me off, so plan B :- found a set of throttle bodies off a 2002 BMW E46 M3, did some research and found a 2JZGTE IS300 on SF in the states with GSXR750 bodies but figured the M3's should be a lot nearer in shape and layout than the uber compact bike ones and with the M3 being a 3.2 litre straight 6 they really dont look a million miles out . From the pics you can see two shiney tubes on the top, the smaller dia is the fuel rail (interestingly 18mm id) the larger is a very healthy sized vacuum connection linking all the bodies so hopefully i can still retain MAP (as per the IS300), the stock plenum inlets measure around 44mm each and the M3 bodies are 50mm so allowing for the restriction of the butterfly plate they should just be slightly bigger than stock, the other good thing about these over the Gixer's is all the bodies are seperate the only thing holding them all together is the main throttle linkage bar. So potential problems :- MAP or the dreaded MAF Will the buterfly spindle seals handle boost (1.6+) Synchronisation Throttle linkage and cruise (sorry but i love cruise control) TPS Vacuum link (brakes) Plenum any comments on the above or can anyone see anything glaring i have missed, would be greatfully recieved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Interesting. Will be watching this with interest. Red wine is great isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Red wine is great isn't it? certainly is, in moderation of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 certainly is, in moderation of course Pah! It's just grapes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 If I may blunder in here full of ignorance and interest... Are there any advantages to doing this, or is it more a case of 'cos I can'? I imagine it would sound fantastic though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondango Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Go for it, i was going to lol http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showpost.php?p=2043624&postcount=20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couv3z Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 there is a link in my sig to a tb car, click the blue full stop, this should help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz6002 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 there is a link in my sig to a tb car, click the blue full stop, this should help It doesn't work. This does though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 If I may blunder in here full of ignorance and interest... Are there any advantages to doing this, or is it more a case of 'cos I can'? I imagine it would sound fantastic though. yes your right there is definately an element of "cos i can", i do get bored easily watching telly and really enjoy a challenge/project, as for advantages I think its to easy to just dismiss ITB's as a normally aspirated thing, i once read somewhere anything that works on an n/a will also work on a turbo engine , granted the biggest percentage gains would come on a n/a. The obvious improvement is throttle response but i cant remember the last time i got in my car and thought "i need more throttle response" , power delivery can also be tuned by the inlet valve area to ITB butterfly area ratio, ITB's also give a better balanced flow into each cylinder. I think the real advantage would come on a manual gearbox small single setup blatting round a track but alas a 2 wheeled accident many moons ago means i'm restricted to a "slush box" so i'll make the most of what i have and see what i get, if it works out i'll post all my drawings so it should be pretty easy for anyone else to replicate Go for it, i was going to lol http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showpost.php?p=2043624&postcount=20 wow missed that one bud did it make it off the drawing board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondango Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 wow missed that one bud did it make it off the drawing board Still burried under it somewhere my idea was a stroked N/A engine, if it was planning Forced induction ITB's i would be looking at these http://extrudabody.com/Products/ITBs.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Nice idea, but i would be inclined to have a look at adapting a set of RB 26 throttle bodies/plenum, as it looks like the BMW ones will need to be closer together, which will cause big problems with the linkage, but good luck whichever way you go:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Very interesting, subscribed. Keep drinking the red wine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 Nice idea, but i would be inclined to have a look at adapting a set of RB 26 throttle bodies/plenum, as it looks like the BMW ones will need to be closer together, which will cause big problems with the linkage, but good luck whichever way you go:) that was one of the first things i checked and theres nothing that scares me, besides we dont want any of them Skyline boys finding out we're putting Datsun bits on our cars oh the shame, first thing i need to do is get the pressure washer on them, for some bizarre reason their covered in sand ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colsoop Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Subscribed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 If I may blunder in here full of ignorance and interest... Are there any advantages to doing this, or is it more a case of 'cos I can'? I imagine it would sound fantastic though. As already mentioned the main benefit if improved throttle response when running large overlaps because there is less intake volume to fill up with exhaust residuals. You also get a slight benefit in the reduction of puming losses, as the induction air isn't being sucked through the main throttle. Probably less relevant on a forced induction engine, but not totally irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 had a bit of a play today 1st pic shows the TPS side body note the slight downward angle of the body as well 2nd pic shows a supra inlet gasket on the body, not to bad a match, i think the easiest way to mount them is going to be to make a spacer plate that matchs the head and all the bolt holes for the bodies 3rd pic shows a stock Bosch M3 injector and a Rochester -Siemens injector, the Bosch injector has a much longer nose to protrude into the body further, the Rochester is a perfect fit in the body but unfortunately sits 8mm further back than the Bosch, will have a look for some alternative injectors, interestingly the stock M3 Bosch injector is only 247 cc and it makes 320hp , i suppose this reflects a more efficient modern design than our ye olde Supra engines apologies for not using photoshoped pics but it drives me mad when you find a really good thread and all the photoshop pics are not available any more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean1933 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Very interesting project, and with enough thought i cant see why it wouldnt work. As you say i think a small tubby setup with these fitted would make for a VERY responsive road/track car. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Yes i think an adaptor/spacer plate would be the best way, then you could keep the std throttle linkage, which will make setup a lot easier. Not sure about the shaft seals though, being from an N/A they will be designed to prevent leakage from outside rather than inside, but if the tolerances are good you may get away with it. Plenum design will be the telling point i suspect, and will determine the overall efficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Worth a try i would say chap..... Be fun doing the 4D Mapping for it on the EMU Even though it does kinda do 4D mapping anyway with Airflow being able to be set to TPS and Inj to Map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 interestingly the stock M3 Bosch injector is only 247 cc and it makes 320hp , i suppose this reflects a more efficient modern design than our ye olde Supra engines It's an NA, so running high 12's to low 13:1 afrs for max power - the injector requirements are smaller -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 well i've managed to stay off the red wine for a day or two so a quick update, decided against an adaptor plate direct to head as some of the TB's holes and cylinder head studs overlaped, i could have re-drilled the head but bottled it due to having nightmares about breaking into water ways etc , so i have got a stand off plate made that will be welded via tubes to a cut down lower plenum, found some lovely oval tube at http://www.rossmachineracing.com/intakepartspage.html and was going to use their "velocity stacks" but i have really been looking for a true velocity stack rather than just a simple radius. I've now found some plenum intakes that should do the job Last pic shows the worst mismatch from the 90mm M3 cylinder spacings so the tube will need to be angled for number 2 and 5 cylinder. More astute observers may have noticed there are only 5 TB's here, the last is at work having some ally bungs made for the redundant injector holes, interestingly this is the first time i have used waterjet cutting and its spot on, surface finish is not as good as milled but from loading the program in the machine to finished took about 10 minutes , they dont even bolt the plate down, the guy charged me a tenner for the complete cut plate, i could'nt even buy the material for that, bargain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkR Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Very nice idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 bit of an update, been far to busy with work, training and sitting exams , bought some more bits though, got some sweet oval section tube from http://www.rossmachineracing.com/ who are jolly helpfull guys, also got some fuel rail brackets from them which are very nicely cnc machined and a considerable improvement on my old ones, picked up some bell mouths and these will be going inside the plenum (cant help thinking how cool these would look on an n/a ) i think from a packaging point of view the Ross machine bellmouths would be far easier to mount but that exchange rate at the moment is a killer , right need to get in the garage and start hacking "aluminum" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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