Dragonball Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Just wondered if there is anyone with a single who seriously 'tracks' their car other than Paul Whiffin, and how driveable some of these single kits make the car compared to the progressiveness of the twin setup. Comments? Power is great - when the car works! Far too often there are too many problems following single conversions, mapping, fuelling, plugs, rings, idling etc etc OK so the 'correctly' set-up single kits will make you an extra second or so over a quarter mile - that's a lot of money for bugger-all really! Also you need ready access to lots of mechanical expertise to tweak and reset even after setting it all up... But just my opinion of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
attilauk Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Just wondered if there is anyone with a single who seriously 'tracks' their car other than Paul Whiffin doubtfull mate, i dont think i've ever heard a single equipped car that will pass sound regs on most tracks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 By track, I didnt mean 1/4 mile.. im not interested in that for my cars purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Bob, Do you mean street driveable or track driveable... Most of the streetability comes down to the map...and the most important factor in this is "transient response". Very very basically, this is the moment when you open the throttle in town driving and the engine is very sensitive to afr changes...injector control is critical. In a car with crap transient response you get juddering and hesitation at low speeds (manouvering etc) and have to rev through it to drive the car smoothly... A single has more issue's here cause it's map is completely different from the stock twins...but it doesn't take too much effort to sort it out. With a single on you get better engine Volumetric Efficiency. The stock twins are a restriction to the exhaust system. The removal of them and the fitment of the more efficient single helps the low compression engine work off boost which negates some of the losses of not having the 1st turbo. With an ecu capable of timing control (Apex'i ITC, eManage, AEM etc) you can adjust things to make that NA low compression stage even more drivable. So in short down low, I am "apparently" lacking some oomph, but I only know about that when I'm with a stock based TT. Once I get to the midrange 3000rpm+ the tables have turned. I find that if I'm driving below 2500rpm I'm not opn boost anyway so why do I need a first turbo? If I want acceleration from down there...I should be less lazy and change down! With a single she's a kitten to drive in town, and an wolf on the dually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Power is great - when the car works! Far too often there are too many problems following single conversions, mapping, fuelling, plugs, rings, idling etc etc OK so the 'correctly' set-up single kits will make you an extra second or so over a quarter mile - that's a lot of money for bugger-all really! Also you need ready access to lots of mechanical expertise to tweak and reset even after setting it all up... But just my opinion of course! so you think a second or so is bugger all over 1/4 mile Paul!! Like any conversion, hybrid or single, if its not done correctly you will experience problems. A small single should incur no more, and possibly less problems than hybrids, due to the simplicity of the set up. Any problems are associated with the quest for big power which necessitate the use of much larger injectors, and subsequently the uprgrade of the management. This has nothing to do with the single kits and you would have exactly the same issue if you upgraded the fuel system and management on a hybrid car. What problems are there associated with rings due to a single conversion!?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Re Dale's comment, some hybrids are more equal than others There is a good possibility that Robbie's weren't that good an improvement over stock afore ye go blaming his driving... Hybrids, good ones anyway, are definitely stronger than stockers at whatever boost pressure you want to run. Heckler's car is a good example of a pukka hybrided up beastie (just needs cams now ). It's usefully quick, will murder any BPU car, and runs just fine. The other great thing is that low down first-turbo grunt. A single won't match that, I was quite taken aback by it while in Smarty's car, as I'd forgotten what it was like! There are pros and cons to both setups. It's "easier" to build a hybrid car as everything fits into stock locations, no angle grinding or welding required. it's "harder" to build a hybrid car because of the pain-in-the-ass plumbing of the sequential system and the inaccessibility of half the bolts/hoses. Depends on what you find more challenging. Paul E has listed a bunch of issues that can crop up with a single install. He's missed off the myriad of sequential system problems that can arise if you stick with that though Or high EGT issues. Or boost control problems due to the dinky integral wastegate... See what I'm saying? Horses for courses. Each approach has it's issues. I like both. Both setups are quite different driving experiences. Sometimes I miss the low down first turbo grunt, but I know I'd damn well miss the 600bhp of the single if I went back to sequential as well -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 What problems are there associated with rings due to a single conversion!?? Think he's talking about the problem he has with soiling himself in a single'd Supra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Think he's talking about the problem he has with soiling himself in a single'd Supra Probably , but I would like clarification as to piston ring issues that can be attributable to a single conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I'm saying? Horses for courses. Each approach has it's issues. I like both. Both setups are quite different driving experiences. Sometimes I miss the low down first turbo grunt, but I know I'd damn well miss the 600bhp of the single if I went back to sequential as well -Ian That is also down to turbo selection, but isnt it nice to have the choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Good points raised here, let's go: Power is great - when the car works! Agreed. I've had misfire problem after misfire problem with the single turbo conversion, but one of those was a daft jumper setting on the E-Manage which is now common knowledge on how to fix/avoid in the first place, and all the others were either running rich (and I didn't have any experience of the symptoms so couldn't immediately diagnose it) or gammy coil packs. Or possibly the coil pack connectors. Now with refurbished coil pack connectors and six new coil packs and the right bloody jumper setting in the E-Manage it works fine. None of these problems should prove to be an insurmountable nightmare for anyone going single now, because we've got the shared experience to diagnose and flatten them straight away. The biggest problem I ever had was with an Apexi AFC that stopped working stealthily, that was with the hybrids on but I shan't blame them Any 'big' modification is going to have teething troubles, and every car will have stuff go wrong even if it's bone stock! Far too often there are too many problems following single conversions, mapping, fuelling, plugs, rings, idling etc etc Hmmm, well, I think one of the most common problems on here is "my car misfires/hesitates since I wound the boost up!" which as we all know is plug gap/grade of plug. That and "my afrs go lean when I hit 1.2bar of boost" which is, old and tired j-spec pump. So half the things you list as a reason not to go single can actually be classed as a reason not to go BPU! Going single turbo is a path with many routes. Some long, some short, some well travelled, some overgrown, and probably quite a few potholes on the way! OK so the 'correctly' set-up single kits will make you an extra second or so over a quarter mile - that's a lot of money for bugger-all really! Pah. I in fact got 0.27s faster than my best ever time on hybrids lol Bollocks to the drag strip, drive it on the road and you'll know it was worth it every time the wastegate opens. The difference is unbelievable compared to the hybrids I used to have Also you need ready access to lots of mechanical expertise to tweak and reset even after setting it all up... That'll be us then -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I suppose you could go with hybrids or single and stay at low boost with relatively minor problems (or none), but single generally means higher boost, what's the point in removing the low rev turbo if you're not making use of the big single? That's why I suggested hybrids. (Again we're talking low budget here, keeping the boost at stock or BPU levels to reduce the costs involved). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I suppose you could go with hybrids or single and stay at low boost with relatively minor problems (or none), but single generally means higher boost, what's the point in removing the low rev turbo if you're not making use of the big single? That's why I suggested hybrids. (Again we're talking low budget here, keeping the boost at stock or BPU levels to reduce the costs involved). But surely if the hybrids are any good, you'll require bigger injectors? A T61 will run @ 1.4 bar just fine on 550's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Yeah, well street would be #1 use but tracking would also be important. I guess what Im trying to identify here is say Im going around a corner, below or off boost, am I gonna then go and get full boost or 5-600bhp all rush in with a 0.5-1k rev range and send me spinning all over the place? A nice smooth power delivery is needed I guess, which no doubt can be achieved with a decent map. Bob, Do you mean street driveable or track driveable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Yeah, well street would be #1 use but tracking would also be important. I guess what Im trying to identify here is say Im going around a corner, below or off boost, am I gonna then go and get full boost or 5-600bhp all rush in with a 0.5-1k rev range and send me spinning all over the place? A nice smooth power delivery is needed I guess, which no doubt can be achieved with a decent map. I think the answer you're looking for is in your right foot...or RLTC...My single equipped engine rev's incredibly quickly...but at least you don't get a sudden surge from a second turbo halfway round a corner...1 turbo, properly controlled boost and your sensible hat on and you'll paste all stock based systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Well yeah, but the Supra can be a handful in stock form with #2 coming online at inappropriate times But the thought of having something similar but with double the power at hand (over a short powerband) makes it even more intimidating. Obviously if you're driving in a straight line you wouldnt care about it, but for general drivability or powering out of a corner it'd be a pita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 ....and your sensible hat on .......... Who wears them........ really? Seriously if my turbos go I'd have a tough time choosing what to get, but on my budget it would probably end up being stocks or hybrids, and I'd have to keep the power low on hybrids for a while until I could afford FMIC/emanage/injectors etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Well yeah, but the Supra can be a handful in stock form with #2 coming online at inappropriate times But the thought of having something similar but with double the power at hand (over a short powerband) makes it even more intimidating. Obviously if you're driving in a straight line you wouldnt care about it, but for general drivability or powering out of a corner it'd be a pita. Then lower the boost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Bob, It's not that furocious(sp?) well not on a T61 anyway...because it's already at 1 bar at 3000rpm ish it just builds power with revs after that and not boost. It would be the same as planting your foot in a big CC na. once the turbo is spinning. IYSWIM? But yeah RLTC can help in those situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Piston rings was in a list of problems suffered by those having gone the single route And yes 1-2 secs over a 1/4 mile does mean bugger-all to the majority of drivers whose main aim in life is to enjoy fast trouble free driving - which is what you can almost (and I say 'almost') guarantee from the system Mr Toyota devised until we start messing about with it...! Of course - if 1/4 mile times ring ya bell...but even then... The single route can be fast and exciting - but as a trade off against all the hassle and problems that the 'majority' of single conversions have gone through - not worth it - all IMHO of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Piston rings was in a list of problems suffered by those having gone the single route Please post a link or tell us who suffered this failure? I honestly can't remember one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Piston rings was in a list of problems suffered by those having gone the single route And yes 1-2 secs over a 1/4 mile does mean bugger-all to the majority of drivers whose main aim in life is to enjoy fast trouble free driving - which is what you can almost (and I say 'almost') guarantee from the system Mr Toyota devised until we start messing about with it...! Of course - if 1/4 mile times ring ya bell...but even then... The single route can be fast and exciting - but as a trade off against all the hassle and problems that the 'majority' of single conversions have gone through - not worth it - all IMHO of course Paul there is MUCH misinformation in this and the earlier post. Please explain to me, and everyone, how a singled car has affected the piston rings. Not "so and so" said, but actually explain it. Oh and the "majority" is a peach of a statement. How many hybrid failures have there been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 A T61 has good power from 2500 to 4000rpm...midrange...and that's where everyday driving needs power...to reduce you T.E.D. (Time Exposed to Danger) when overtaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Yeah, well street would be #1 use but tracking would also be important. I guess what Im trying to identify here is say Im going around a corner, below or off boost, am I gonna then go and get full boost or 5-600bhp all rush in with a 0.5-1k rev range and send me spinning all over the place? A nice smooth power delivery is needed I guess, which no doubt can be achieved with a decent map. I don't quite understand what you are saying, do you want *more* lag? Over 4000rpm with a T67, planting the throttle sees large amounts of power very quickly. I haven't got any up-to-date datalogs or graphs here at the mo but I know it gets on song so fast I mentally class it as "no lag" (although realistically there must be a bit at least). Do that halfway round a corner and it'll spin up, so part throttle control is required. You've seen my dyno chart, that's pretty linear, is that what you mean? The sharpest climb is just under 200bhp between 4000 and 4500rpm - whatta rush -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I think he meant if you plant your foot down from 1500 revs, will the wheels suddenly start spinning at 3000 revs? That's different to lag I believe? It's just before the turbo's boost range. Admittedly that won't happen very often round a corner, but if you judge it wrong and end up in low revs, then accelerate out of a soft corner you could loose it if you're not prepared for the oncoming boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I think he meant if you plant your foot down from 1500 revs, will the wheels suddenly start spinning at 3000 revs? That's different to lag I believe? It's just before the turbo's boost range. Admittedly that won't happen very often round a corner, but if you judge it wrong and end up in low revs, then accelerate out of a soft corner you could loose it if you're not prepared for the oncoming boost. so what happends when #2 comes on line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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