Air charge tempreture 70 degrees, too hot?

[Kaan W]

Kaan, even on a bog standard NA mine ran terribly in hot weather without the shroud, it just didn't seem happy at all, poor idle, poor pickup, etc (no fancy gauges to monitor, but I've owned supra's long enough to know when one isn't happy). As soon as I fitted the shroud it all settled down and had a small gain in performance. Multiply that many times from the heat a single turbo produces and you have your issue identified.

 

I checked mine on the way home this evening. 25 min drive and Toucan read 45 max and that was after hard pull in 3rd and 4th - your temps are deffo too high mate.

 

I think that must definitely be my problem then guys, I will put a wanted thread up and fit one asap. The inlet pipe must be getting alot of heat soak from the radiator because the exit of the intercooler is near cold whilst the temp is reading 70. Thanks for the help ill update after I get this fitted.

[Kaan W]

Just received a fan shroud from Ashbuster thanks mate Now this one has 2 small auxiliary fans but my car only has one electrical connector. Can I hook up both fans to one wire or shall I remove both auxiliary fans and block the holes as I have no aircon if this is what there for?

 

Also is there any where in the stock intake manifold to mount the ACT sensor or shall I keep it in the intercooler pipe just in front of the throttle body?

[Chris Wilson]

I'd blank the holes off, smoothly and neatly.

[Kaan W]

Ahh just the kind response I was hoping! Thanks Chris i'll bond a piece of perspex over the holes and seal it up should work ok.

 

Do you recommend I try and eliminate as many silicone joiners as possible as I have a length about 10" right behind the radiator, will this absorb more heat than a one piece aluminium pipe?

[Chris Wilson]

Forget all about lagging intake pipes, it's a total and utter waste of time. Google laminar air flow in pipes and general thermodynamic stuff. Only the outside air molecules are in touch with the inside of the intake pipe walls, the pipes are relatively narrow, so under boost air speed is VERY high. The molecules are only in touch for microseconds. The only time you will see heat soak is at idle or stopped, and a few seconds of normal engine operation restores the status quo. Look at formula cars , touring cars and high end rally cars. Huge budgets, talented guys, no lagging. Total waste of time, honestly... Simple physics. Sorry to the laggers here...Nowt personal.

[Kaan W]

A nice bit of info there thanks again!

[imi]

ACT on my Toucan display shows around the 70 mark after driving for 10 minutes or so, is this about right or should it be a lower?

 

70 deg is pretty normal when heatsoaked (Stuck in traffic) - when moving however that is far from normal.

 

Like said - with the proper setup you shouldnt really see temps beyond 40C-50C even on a super hot day in the UK.

 

imi

[Chris Wilson]

I think this sensor could well be reading pipe temp, the pipe feels roughly 68 degrees tbh.

 

 

I have visions of you with your finger up a dog's arse, saying "I think Fido is running a temperature today, he's 104 Fahrenheit"

[Kaan W]

70 deg is pretty normal when heatsoaked (Stuck in traffic) - when moving however that is far from normal.

 

Like said - with the proper setup you shouldnt really see temps beyond 40C-50C even on a super hot day in the UK.

 

imi

 

Even on a hot day driving at a constant 70mph it shows a minimum of 60 degrees. When stopped in traffic or cruising at 40 its around the 70 mark.

 

I have visions of you with your finger up a dog's arse, saying "I think Fido is running a temperature today, he's 104 Fahrenheit"

 

[mellonman]

so i take it you are now vistous fan, if so i would jst keep that fans and run with the one plug which is probably linked into the pair of fans anyway, i have booted my car aound driving like a nutter enough to bring them on and i was just bpu then,,

if toyota fitted them im sure they are of use and if you can easily keep i would

 

this must be a first a differance of opion to chris wilson didnt think it could be posible

[Tricky-Ricky]

Forget all about lagging intake pipes, it's a total and utter waste of time. Google laminar air flow in pipes and general thermodynamic stuff. Only the outside air molecules are in touch with the inside of the intake pipe walls, the pipes are relatively narrow, so under boost air speed is VERY high. The molecules are only in touch for microseconds. The only time you will see heat soak is at idle or stopped, and a few seconds of normal engine operation restores the status quo. Look at formula cars , touring cars and high end rally cars. Huge budgets, talented guys, no lagging. Total waste of time, honestly... Simple physics. Sorry to the laggers here...Nowt personal.

 

Glad you posted that Chris, saved me doing it, I have read similar comment's about pipework lagging and lot of misconceptions about heat soak etc on this and other forums, nothing to beat a decent cold air intake and a good sized IC with some sensible ducting.

[imi]

Even on a hot day driving at a constant 70mph it shows a minimum of 60 degrees. When stopped in traffic or cruising at 40 its around the 70 mark.

 

 

 

 

that certainly doesn't sound like its doing your engine any favours

[Kaan W]

that certainly doesn't sound like its doing your engine any favours

 

I'm certainly not making the most out of the turbo that's for sure.

 

The thing is the exit of the intercooler is very near cold I wouldn't even say warm, but the pipe just before the throttle body is near hot and that's where the sensor is. Is there a way I can install it to make sure the probe definitely is not measuring the pipe temp?

[Tricky-Ricky]

The trouble is a lot of the cheaper aftermarket sensors also pick up the heat of what they are mounted in as well, but you should see a difference in temps as the airflow increases, don't be fooled by the std IAT sensor as the temp range and fuel trim is pretty limited anyway.

 

If you want accurate then you will need a gauge and thermocouple set up that you can set the thermocouple probe into the airflow, but you will still be picking up the mounting metal temps until there is enough airflow to change that.

[Chris Wilson]

Marelli ATS-04 is the de facto motorsport fast reaction air temp sensor. I use them quite a lot and they aren't particularly dear. Wheteher your ecu will allow the curve of the sensor to be used I don't know.

 

 

There are UK sellers, this is just the first info I found via Google:

 

http://www.compsystems.com.au/index.php/en/products/sensors/temperature/magneti-marelli-ats04-air-temperature-sensor-detail

[Noz]

If headsoak isn't much of a problem on pipes and throttle bodies, why do people wrap manifolds?

 

Only reason I ask is I don't wrap any of my exhaust system. It's just something I haven't done. Is it worth the hassle?

[Chris Wilson]

Exhaust manifolds? The thinking is the heat energy in the primaries is retained and adds to engine efficiency. If there is a gain, it's tiny. The other reason is it reduces radiant and convected heat into the engine compartment, so may keep intake air cooler if the air is picked up from a sub optimal area (it should inhale cool fresh air from OUTSIDE of the engine bay, preferably at higher than ambient pressure through ram effect, with provisos). Heat wrapping can also stop radiant heat melting or otherwise damaging heat sensitive components nearby. It can also promote cracking of manifolds made of less than optimal materials. Again, look to high end motorsport. Ever seen a wrapped F1 manifold? F3? F3000?

 

Turbo heat shields are usually to prevent damage to other components form radiated heat, which can be absolutely massive from something near white hot. Again, the donside is turbine housings not made from Ni-Resist or similar high nickel content materials will flake, and flakes of oxidised metal going through the turbine blades gives the familiar erosion or breakage seen in converted diesel turbo turbine housings used on highly stressed performance petrol engines. You MUST run a suitable turbine housing material to avoid this. Garrett list the turbos offered with Ni-Resist housings, and you should pick one of those. Some of the newer cast stainless housings may be OK, I have little knowledge of them.

 

Would I myself wrap a tubular header exhaust manifold on a turbo or N/A engine? No.

 

Would I put a heat blanket on a turbo's turbine housing? Yes, if I knew the material the housing was made from was suitable.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Chris Wilson
Additional answer. (see edit history)

[Noz]

That's saved me a load of trouble wrapping everything up then. New DEi blanket and I'm away. Thanks!

[mk1its]

I feel sorry for your car, it takes 10 min for the the oil to get to full working temp, 30-40 is fine.

 

[Kaan W]

lol

[Kaan W]

Update: I have put a new shroud on but have seen no difference to ACT or coolant temp whatsoever. The next thing to try is a new sensor as I feel this one may be getting its reading from the actual pipework.

[Supranature]

Just a thought, but is the 70 degrees you quote a Fahrenheit, and not Celsius reading?

I know nothing about your display, but it may have a switchable reading for different markets?

In the USA they have no idea what Celsius is.

[Kaan W]

I'm pretty sure it's Celsius mate as with the rest of the gauges. Im not sure how the sensors work as the prob is attached to the threaded part, is this suppose to be separated by ptfe tape from the pipework?

[Supranature]

Ptfe would offer some form of heat insulation, as your intake looks metal from your garage pics. Could it not be mounted on the silicone joiner somehow?

[Kaan W]

That's what I was thinking but most of the setups I see have them mounted in the metal, I think the best option at the moment will be to replace the sensor as im pretty sure it's getting an incorrect reading somehow. Even after a short drive off boost completely last night it went to 65 after 25 minutes at a constant 40mph.