The environment?

[Tannhauser]

if you think about it there's nothing you dont pay tax/ vat on,

 

life is one giant tax cycle if you think of it in the terms you work to get taxed and you are taxed, every thing you buy, then pay for food, a home also when you take a dump ( water rates to flush your chods away) every last thing.. if the goverment could tax you for breathing they would!

 

I can't understand the resentment towards taxes at all. you seem to be complaining that you don't get your shit taken away for free. But surely whether a bloke comes and takes it away in a bucket or an enormous organisation does it, it's reasonable to pay for it?

 

I know I pay a load of money every month towards services for other people, services I'll never use myself. For example: I don't have kids, so I could say my money is unfairly being taken for subsidised child care and education. But so what? It's just part of being in a society, where you have other people whose needs may be different to your own.

 

I don't even care that there are undoubtedly some spongers living off my hard earned taxes....small price to pay, imo, for living in a country where at least there's a safety net that won't let me starve if I lose my job.

 

The UK attitude to taxes has really changed in the last 100 years or so, as we have drifted away from a European notion of social contract to a more American view. Will Hutton discusses this at length in The World We're In.

[Ark]

I recycle, I insulated the house, and I'm installing economy-flush toilets (plus we're on a water meter), so I'm satisfied that I offset my carbon footprint.

 

I even looked into solar heating, but realised that it was a load of BS, and the amount of sunlight we get might make one tank of warm water per year.

[robin]

I dont think there is much of a net to stop people starving. Maybe some charities would step in but unless your an ethnic minority with no family and lots of children a council house etc is never going to happen.

[Nick]

I don't mind paying taxes, I just don't like to see the money being wasted. If the government focused more on using the money they have wisely, instead of coming up with new ways to extract more from you and then pissing it away then people would probably complain a lot less.

 

Getting it is easy, knowing how to use it is something else.

[Konrad]

biggest issue in this country is the dole, the British have become lazy which causes issues as there's jobs to be filled, so when all these polish people come over here to work they take our jobs but the issue with them polish is that they send all there money to Poland for there families and as it is not been spent in the UK it is fucking up the economy!

 

Oh another pub plotter, you worked it out with your mates eh? I tell you, take this bloody job if you dare, stop moaning about polish people taking out YOUR job, just go and do it. Economy! Lol, what the hell you know about economy? If you would know just a basics, you would praise all WORKING immigrants. You seems to mix those, who came here from other EU countries to WORK and pay: taxes, NI, rent, bills, food, drinks etc. with those hyenas, who came to UK to claim benefits, social houses etc from first day. You know shit and therefor talk shit mate, educate yourself about other EU countries and terms&conditions of our working and benefits we can claim in UK.

As a teaser - we have to work here without break longer then 31 days for at least 1 year to get any benefit at all - we have to proof we are capable of taking care about ourself.

 

Additional info: If wave of immigrants (proper working ones) will slow down and eventually stop, in next 15 years UK will be not able to cope with pensions and your economy will collapse. Start kicking chav asses to make them work, not leech on system.

[jaymdee]

I don't mind paying taxes, I just don't like to see the money being wasted.

 

Super duper IT systems anyone (NHS, DVLA etc)

 

Government spend millions (or even billions) on these and due to their poor specifications, the costs spiral out of control and they are left with a heap of crap. Can't blame the contractors, as it's always the poor requirement specs which screw it up.

 

I work in defence and an example is one of the MOD guys saying "well when we asked you to do that, we meant this" I said "well why didn't you say that then?"

[Soop Dogg]

There are a number of things that really hack me off about the whole environmental debate. (Or NON-Debate if you like!)

 

The world is warming up - I'll accept that on face value. It seems to be true at the moment anyway.

 

However...they say Carbon Dioxide is the most relevant greenhouse gas.

Man's total contribution to global carbon dioxide levels is less than 3%. Most of that comes from industry and power stations etc. Only a relatively small proportion of mans C02 output comes from his use of cars.

 

The motorist gets slammed for driving a powerful car, yet when UK power stations reverted back to burning coal when gas prices went up last year, resulting in an increase in C02 output for the whole of the UK of almost 25%, in just one year, the government, instead of criticising them and slapping extra taxes on coal, said that they would have to find 'new incentives' to encourage the power companies to use gas. So they'll now commission some study that will cost the taxpayer millions to find out how we can 'encourage' them to reduce their carbon footprint.

 

The other thing that I hate is the fact that they increase taxes on higher polluting cars, based on their manufacturers figures for each vehicle when new. So, if you maintain your car in perfect mechanical condition to ensure that it runs as cleanly as possible, but it has a large engine, you'll pay stacks more than some to$$er driving around in a 1982 Ford Orion being followed by a huge cloud of black smoke because he doesn't bother with getting that 4th cylinder running and will just bin the car in a couple of months anyway and buy something just as bad for £50 to get him to work because he hasn't a hope of getting the Orion through an MOT. Or some hippy who reckons we should all save the planet, but insists on driving a 1972 beetle, leaving a trail of oil and fumes behind him everywhere he goes and doesn't even have to pay road tax because the car is exempt. (Did you know that if a beetle isn't leaking oil, it's probably because it's empty?)

 

I really think there is a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that our planet is heating up as part of a natural cycle. I believe we need to reduce pollution - but for the good of our own health - not of the planet - our effect on the global warming thing is neglible. To heat something the size of our atmosphere and our oceans takes centuries - not the less-than-100-years that we've been doing heavy industry.

 

Some day someone will come up with the evidence to back this up and we'll all finally see that the government have been taxing us to the hilt for nothing. Currently there is probably enough evidence to at least justify a sensible debate, but nobody seems to be able to shout loud enough to be heard over the politicians and the environmentalists for anyone to say" hang on - let's think about this for a moment". Until that happens, we'll continue along in this rich vein of hysteria trying to change the physics of our planet and blaming each other for what might really be nature just following its' own rhythm.

[bmx1lew]

Oh another pub plotter, you worked it out with your mates eh? I tell you, take this bloody job if you dare, stop moaning about polish people taking out YOUR job, just go and do it. Economy! Lol, what the hell you know about economy? If you would know just a basics, you would praise all WORKING immigrants. You seems to mix those, who came here from other EU countries to WORK and pay: taxes, NI, rent, bills, food, drinks etc. with those hyenas, who came to UK to claim benefits, social houses etc from first day. You know shit and therefor talk shit mate, educate yourself about other EU countries and terms&conditions of our working and benefits we can claim in UK.

As a teaser - we have to work here without break longer then 31 days for at least 1 year to get any benefit at all - we have to proof we are capable of taking care about ourself.

 

Additional info: If wave of immigrants (proper working ones) will slow down and eventually stop, in next 15 years UK will be not able to cope with pensions and your economy will collapse. Start kicking chav asses to make them work, not leech on system.

 

i got this information from tv which is good enought for me, its's fact that british people who are lazy and live on the dole are not filling in jobs, and its fact that immigrants are taking them which im not complaining about i dont mind them coming here and working, and its fact that if money is earned in the uk but is not put back into our country it causes issues with econemy simple example, if people are making money and not spending it in our shop's companys are loosing out, i believe what i have watched on tv makes enought sense, im not having a go at any one here im just repeating what i have watched, so no need to be a bellend!

[Soop Dogg]

i got this information from tv which is good enought for me, its's fact that british people who are lazy and live on the dole are not filling in jobs, and its fact that immigrants are taking them which im not complaining about i dont mind them coming here and working, and its fact that if money is earned in the uk but is not put back into our country it causes issues with econemy simple example, if people are making money and not spending it in our shop's companys are loosing out, i believe what i have watched on tv makes enought sense, im not having a go at any one here im just repeating what i have watched, so no need to be a bellend!

 

 

This so reminds me of 'Television, the Drug of the Nation' by The disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy. The song must be 15 years old or more, and although much of it is of American reference, it seems to become more relevant every day.

 

Take a read of the Lyrics:

 

one nation

under God

has turned into

one nation under the influence

of one drug

 

[chorus:]

Television, the drug of the Nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

(2x)

 

T.V., it

satellite links

our United States of Unconsciousness

Apathetic therapeutic and extremely addictive

The methadone metronome pumping out

150 channels 24 hours a day

you can flip through all of them

and still there's nothing worth watching

T.V. is the reason why less than 10 per cent of our

Nation reads books daily

Why most people think Central Amerika

means Kansas

Socialism means unamerican

and Apartheid is a new headache remedy

absorbed in it's world it's so hard to find us

It shapes our mind the most

maybe the mother of our Nation

should remind us

that we're sitting too close to...

 

[Chorus:]

Television, the drug of the Nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

(2x)

 

T.V. is

the stomping ground for political candidates

Where bears in the woods

are chased by Grecian Formula'd

bald eagles

T.V. is mechanized politic's

remote control over the masses

co-sponsored by environmentally safe gases

watch for the PBS special

It's the perpetuation of the two party system

where image takes precedence over wisdom

Where sound bite politics are served to

the fastfood culture

Where straight teeth in your mouth

are more important than the words

that come out of it

Race baiting is the way to get selected

Willie Horton or

Will he not get elected on...

 

[Chorus:]

Television, the drug of the Nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

(2x)

 

T.V., is it the reflector or the director?

Does it imitate us

or do we imitate it

because a child watches 1500 murders before he's

twelve years old and we wonder why we've created

a Jason generation that learns to laugh

rather than to abhor the horror

T.V. is the place where

armchair generals and quarterbacks can

experience first hand

the excitement of warfare

as the theme song is sung in the background

Sugar sweet sitcoms

that leave us with a bad actor taste while

pop stars metamorphosize into soda pop stars

You saw the video

You heard the soundtrack

Well now go buy the soft drink

Well, the onla cola that I support

would be a union C.O.L.A.(Cost Of Living Allowance)

On television

 

[Chorus:]

Television, the drug of the Nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

(2x)

 

Back again, "New and improved"

We return to our irregularly programmed schedule

hidden cleverly between heavy breasted

beer and car commercials

CNNESPNABCTNT but mostly B.S.

Where oxymoronic language like

"virtually spotless", "fresh frozen"

"light yet filling" and "military intelligence"

have become standard

T.V. is the place where phrases are redefined

like "recession" to "necessary downturn"

"Crude oil" on a beach to "mousse"

"Civilian death" to "collateral damages"

and being killed by your own Army

is now called "friendly fire"

T.V. is the place where the pursuit

of happiness has become the pursuit of

trivia

Where toothpaste and cars have become

sex objects

Where imagination is sucked out of children

by a cathode ray nipple

T.V. is the only wet nurse

that would create a cripple

 

[Chorus:]

Television, the drug of the Nation

Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

(4x)

[Ian C]

Cool, got an MP3 of that, it sounds like my sorta thing

 

And what Soop Dogg said.

 

I think it's utter Hubris to think we can perform any planetary engineering at this stage in our development. It's just and excuse for the ferrrrickers in power to get more money and power for their own personal gain. Much like everything else in politics.

 

I still think we should watch what we pump into the ground, water, and air though, because if it's clean, it's a nice place to live.

 

-Ian

[Gazboy]

I haven't got the exact figures to hand, but our contribution (225g/km cars) is something like this:

 

As a % carbon dioxide makes up 0.035%

 

Man is responsible for just 3% of global c02.

 

The UK is responsible for just 2.3%

 

Of the UK's C02 output, transport makes up 20%

 

16% is road transport.

 

50% is private cars

 

7% of those are bandG or pre 2001 equivelent.

 

Do I feel guilty? Do the math.

[bmx1lew]

one thing i dont get is for a alternative they have been looking into production of electric car's but surley if all cars were electric it would worse due to needing more power stations?

[Lukeyboy2k]

one thing i dont get is for a alternative they have been looking into production of electric car's but surley if all cars were electric it would worse due to needing more power stations?

 

I think along the same lines here. What many "do gooders" fail to realise is that electricity production causes pollution (OK there are green renewable sources but at present they make up a small percentage of electricity used today). They drive around in their little electric things and think they are doing their bit. There will be less pollution where the vehicles are being driven, but surely this is just put elsewhere (i.e. it comes out of the power station and goes wherever it goes). I don't have any figures or facts to justify this statement, but it is my hunch that it is actually more inefficient to burn coal/gas to make electricity to then in turn power electric cars, than it is for a combustion engine to power a car. So until we have pollution free electricity sources then the electric car is actually more harmful.

 

As said in many post before, I think we have little impact compared to other polluters, and that the Earth goes through natural cycles we cannot influence too much. The "Green Thing" is a fad used by politicians and other people for their own gains. Bloody politicians, do-gooders, grrrr.

 

Yeah! Keyboard warrior!

[Tannhauser]

I really think there is a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that our planet is heating up as part of a natural cycle. I believe we need to reduce pollution - but for the good of our own health - not of the planet - our effect on the global warming thing is neglible. To heat something the size of our atmosphere and our oceans takes centuries - not the less-than-100-years that we've been doing heavy industry.

 

Some day someone will come up with the evidence to back this up and we'll all finally see that the government have been taxing us to the hilt for nothing. Currently there is probably enough evidence to at least justify a sensible debate, but nobody seems to be able to shout loud enough to be heard over the politicians and the environmentalists for anyone to say" hang on - let's think about this for a moment". Until that happens, we'll continue along in this rich vein of hysteria trying to change the physics of our planet and blaming each other for what might really be nature just following its' own rhythm.

 

Scientists are by training cautious creatures who usually couch all of their writings in terms of 'gives support for', 'adds weight to the idea that', 'allows us to speculate that' and so on. As a body of people, they are less inclined to be hysterical then any other group. Their livelihood requires them to be sober, guarded and objective.

 

If you look at the IPCC's reports on climate change, you can see the language change from one report to the next as the evidence from different sources kept rolling in. Each successive report becomes less tentative. The scientific debate has been going on for many years and is now effectively settled.The scientific community is never united to a man on anything, but it's as near as dammit on the central tenets of climate change. The C4 documentary a little while back - which set out to disprove the influence of humans -had to resort to misleading, selective editing and consultation of their one genuine expert to make a case.

 

It's well known that the earth does go through natural heating and cooling cycles, but the rate of change at the moment is unprecedented. Although the total amount of CO2 from natural sources is large compared to anthropomorphic CO2, the natural CO2 emitted is largely extracted elsewhere. Adding gigatonnes of CO2 every year that is not extracted is sufficient to alter atmospheric concentrations.

 

Always there seems to be this suspicion that it's all been whipped up by 'environmentalists'. OK, take the example of the US, which has been the last country to accept that human-induced climate change is a reality. There was massive, sustained pressure from the energy lobby to keep climate change off the agenda and to deny climate change. There was a bogus "50, 000 signatories against climate change". There were TV adverts denying it. And let's not forget that the energy companies bankroll the Bush cabal - it's not in their interests, or those of industry, to cut consumption. The environmentalists are a pretty feeble line-up against this lot. And yet, in the end, even the energy companies and the US government couldn't credibly deny anthropomorphic climate change anymore.

 

I'd love you to be proven right on this, and it all to turn out to be natural. It would solve so many immense problems at a stroke. But I'm betting that you're dead wrong.

[Tannhauser]

I think along the same lines here. What many "do gooders" fail to realise is that electricity production causes pollution (OK there are green renewable sources but at present they make up a small percentage of electricity used today). They drive around in their little electric things and think they are doing their bit. There will be less pollution where the vehicles are being driven, but surely this is just put elsewhere (i.e. it comes out of the power station and goes wherever it goes). I don't have any figures or facts to justify this statement, but it is my hunch that it is actually more inefficient to burn coal/gas to make electricity to then in turn power electric cars, than it is for a combustion engine to power a car. So until we have pollution free electricity sources then the electric car is actually more harmful.

 

As said in many post before, I think we have little impact compared to other polluters, and that the Earth goes through natural cycles we cannot influence too much. The "Green Thing" is a fad used by politicians and other people for their own gains. Bloody politicians, do-gooders, grrrr.

 

Yeah! Keyboard warrior!

 

What a shame, a great point, and you went and spoiled it with your childish conflation of 'people trying to do what they can to tackle a potentially huge global problem' with 'do-gooders' (whoever the hell they are).

 

Ah well. I've wondered about this myself and I remember Digsy posting on it a while back. My suspicion is this that burning petrol in cars is less polluting and more efficient than burning coal to generate electricity. However, transporting petrol across oceans and then via lorries might involve massively greater losses in energy then transmitting it through cables.

 

Coal-fired stations are getting more efficient, though, and not everyone with an electric car will be using electricity that's been coal-generated. In the sunnier states of the US, huge numbers of electric car users get it from solar-electric cells on their houses.

[Lukeyboy2k]

What a shame, a great point, and you went and spoiled it with your childish conflation of 'people trying to do what they can to tackle' a potentially huge global problem with 'do-gooders' (whoever the hell they are).

 

 

"Conflation" - great word. I didn't know it existed before, but I'm always enthusiastic about learning new things.

 

The point I was trying to make there was that I think many people jump on the green bandwagon without fully thinking things through. They often want to be seen to be doing the right thing even without questioning it. (i.e. the government or advertising companies tell us electric cars are good for the environment and so they must be, end of, no discussion). I think we've all heard about the celebs who promote the Prius yet still have a few Hummers and supercars in the garage. (That's a whole other debate).

 

I also hadn't taken into the account of the transportation of fuels and the fact that larger numbers of electric cars are likely to be used in sunnier climes where electricity can be "free". I must admit I was taking a biased view - when I initially thought about electric cars I was thinking about all the Priuses (sp?) round here in the rain that I can't hear and so nearly run me over. I guess I should be taking a leaf out of my own book and think about the bigger picture.

[Gazboy]

I don't think many people are disputing the Earth is getting hotter, not many people are disputing than man has played a part, what people do have an issue with is that hi-po cars are being used as a scapegoat, as if the world will cool by 3% if personal transport was banned.

 

What really gets me is the taxation aspect- what are they going to do, fill the hole in the ozone with 350 notes?

 

What were the C02 emmisions of the Iraq "war"? We've had battleships, aircraft and artillery over there for four years- an unpopular war that devided a country.

 

The Gov of this country isn't really doing anything except taxing anything that moves, and everything that doesn't. If they really thought 225g/km cars were the spawn of satan they would ban them from sale.

[JustGav]

Also the number of companies that do nothing for recycling is rediculous. The amount of waste paper that comes out of every company is huge and most electrical equipment is left on or on standby overnight along with the lights.

 

Interesting you should say this....

 

I've heard a rumour (which I can't back up yet), that energy companies will start charging companies up front for electric costs at the beginning of the year. The other one I've heard is that there will be rationing on power usage within the london area for the london olympics. This was brought to light with regards datacentres and how the power isn't going to be available. As I said, this is just a rumour that I've heard and nobody has confirmed/denied it as yet.

[Konrad]

Just 1 info and 1 question:

 

Info: UK goverment spending only 3% of all taxes connected to our enviroment on green issues.

 

Question:

Why everyone seems to ignore nuclear power stations? Those as most clean for an atmosphere as far as i know, pretty safe and power efficient. Nuclear waste should be kept in safe place until we will be able to convert it to energy in a future

[Tannhauser]

I don't think many people are disputing the Earth is getting hotter, not many people are disputing than man has played a part, .

 

Depends on who the people are. not amongst scientists or even the general public, but amongst people motivated to believe otherwise in case it impacts them (see this poll).....

 

what people do have an issue with is that hi-po cars are being used as a scapegoat, as if the world will cool by 3% if personal transport was banned.

 

I don't think they are scapegoated. If this was a TV repairer's website, maybe they would be saying the same thing - feeling victimised because of the fees they have to pay for green disposal.

 

I guess high perfomance cars are an obvious target because they are an unecessary luxury (compared to, say, home heating)

 

What really gets me is the taxation aspect- what are they going to do, fill the hole in the ozone with 350 notes?

 

It's to do with trying to change consumer behaviour. It's better than just banning performance cars outright. Also, our laws on modifying are pretty mild compared with, say, California.

 

What were the C02 emmisions of the Iraq "war"? We've had battleships, aircraft and artillery over there for four years- an unpopular war that devided a country.

 

No argument there.

 

The Gov of this country isn't really doing anything except taxing anything that moves, and everything that doesn't. If they really thought 225g/km cars were the spawn of satan they would ban them from sale.

 

Oh, I don't know, I think they've been pretty proactive. The one thing I think they've been really weak on is encouraging the air transport sector to expand (e.g. new airports, going easy on the low-cost airlines).

[Gazboy]

Just 1 info and 1 question:

 

Info: UK goverment spending only 3% of all taxes connected to our enviroment on green issues.

 

Question:

Why everyone seems to ignore nuclear power stations? Those as most clean for an atmosphere as far as i know, pretty safe and power efficient. Nuclear waste should be kept in safe place until we will be able to convert it to energy in a future

 

 

Cos the greenies don't like them.

 

the greenies don't like anything, mainly because they give off the impresion of being anti-capitalists.

 

I personaly am in favour of a nuke shop, even if it was plonked on my doorstep.

[Tannhauser]

"Conflation" - great word. I didn't know it existed before, but I'm always enthusiastic about learning new things.

 

The point I was trying to make there was that I think many people jump on the green bandwagon without fully thinking things through. They often want to be seen to be doing the right thing even without questioning it. (i.e. the government or advertising companies tell us electric cars are good for the environment and so they must be, end of, no discussion). I think we've all heard about the celebs who promote the Prius yet still have a few Hummers and supercars in the garage. (That's a whole other debate).

 

I also hadn't taken into the account of the transportation of fuels and the fact that larger numbers of electric cars are likely to be used in sunnier climes where electricity can be "free". I must admit I was taking a biased view - when I initially thought about electric cars I was thinking about all the Priuses (sp?) round here in the rain that I can't hear and so nearly run me over. I guess I should be taking a leaf out of my own book and think about the bigger picture.

 

Talking about Priuses and Hummers, and the big picture, there's been a report floating around that purports to show that Hummers are the greener of the two. The argument is that initial production costs are so high (environmentally speaking) for the Prius that this outweighs the lower CO2 emissions from fuel.

 

It made a big splash, but the analysis was flawed as theRocky Mountain Institute showed.

[Scooter]

Talking about Priuses and Hummers, and the big picture, there's been a report floating around that purports to show that Hummers are the greener of the two. The argument is that initial production costs are so high (environmentally speaking) for the Prius that this outweighs the lower CO2 emissions from fuel.

 

It made a big splash, but the analysis was flawed as theRocky Mountain Institute showed.

 

what i do remember reading is that the production of a car requires a huge amount of energy and produces lots of undesirable waste.............far more than not making a new car but running an older one into the ground (is this true? after all its just something i read!)

 

It seems to me a good way of being greener is to be less wasteful and here i'm talking about using things until they are broken or unrepairable and not simply out of fashion.

 

An example (and this may shock some) is that i have had only 2 types of mobile phone in my life..........this was not a 'green' decision i just simply don't desire the top model phone or a couple of different ones a year.........however it has to be more 'green' than a "free upgrade every 6 months for £30/month deal" but it doesn't make you cool with your friends or fuel the profits of the multi-nationals.................

[Gazboy]

Talking about Priuses and Hummers, and the big picture, there's been a report floating around that purports to show that Hummers are the greener of the two. The argument is that initial production costs are so high (environmentally speaking) for the Prius that this outweighs the lower CO2 emissions from fuel.

 

It made a big splash, but the analysis was flawed as theRocky Mountain Institute showed.

 

Iirc it was the Jeep Wrangler 4.0 that was reported to have the lowest 'dust to dust' cycle of current production cars in recent times.

 

Edit- the RMI analysis was also flawed, as it didn't take into account transporting the NIMH battery to the assembly plant nor disposing of the vehicles after they go to the great scrapyard in the sky.

[Konrad]

Cos the greenies don't like them.

 

the greenies don't like anything, mainly because they give off the impresion of being anti-capitalists.

 

I personaly am in favour of a nuke shop, even if it was plonked on my doorstep.

 

Ah i know, noone likes greenes, but fact is that only 3% of all taxes we are charged for messing our envoirment is going back to repair envoirment. Rest is spend on next block of flats for young single mothers and money for their pot (and unknown fathers pot too )

 

I wouldn't mind nuclear plant next to my house either. Free warm water, maybe some benefits because of neighbours etc