Fly Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Hahahaha no worries, the guide , if it's the one I'm thinking of says to just wire the 12v that goes to the pump ecu directly to the ecu-pump outlet, this means it runs 12 v with ignition off but key on the first turn, using the relay just means it runs only when ignition onn and is believed to be safer. I think there is a guide for the mod on here that used the relay method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berg Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Im on 440's without 12v mod with no trouble What the actual benefits to doing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/12v_mod/12v_mod.htm Going to try another ecu first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOSTA Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Here you go fella Code Description Causes 24 Intake Air Temp Sensor Circuit Open or short in intake air temp sensor circuit intake air temp sensor ECU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOSTA Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 My bad, didnt notice there was 2 pages to this thread lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Tried another pump ecu/controller but it made no difference. What I have noticed is the first turn of the key I can't hear the fuel pump so I crank it to draw the fuel up and it will eventually start. Now here's the thing, if I turn the engine off and then switch ignition back on I can hear the fuel pump and it fires instantly?? Iv tried searching for a diagram to do the 12v mod with a relay but couldn't find anything dumbed down enough for me to understand, and even if I did this and it worked I'd just be covering up a fault. Any ideas guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Its surely firing instantly because the system is holding pressure!? The pump remains on after engine stop for 10 seconds give or take, when you kill the engine give the car 30s then try again. Mine backs the pressure to 0 psi at this point (theres argument it shouldnt but works fine) Then try again see if it fires instantly. My thought at the moment is still the fact your running the pump at 9v rather than 12v and its taking ever so slightly longer to prime the system and then supply enough for the map on cold start!? I dont want to broad brush too much but some tuners dont look at the cold start as your engine is pretty hot after completing a mapping session and hence some cold start issues can be had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 when you say turn the engine off and then on again, it's ok, do you mean just the ignition, or after the engine has fired up? Is it a stock fuel pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Its surely firing instantly because the system is holding pressure!? The pump remains on after engine stop for 10 seconds give or take, when you kill the engine give the car 30s then try again. Mine backs the pressure to 0 psi at this point (theres argument it shouldnt but works fine) Then try again see if it fires instantly. My thought at the moment is still the fact your running the pump at 9v rather than 12v and its taking ever so slightly longer to prime the system and then supply enough for the map on cold start!? I dont want to broad brush too much but some tuners dont look at the cold start as your engine is pretty hot after completing a mapping session and hence some cold start issues can be had. Cheers pal it's something else I can try when I get home, I believe the relay I need is a 4pin 12v 30a one??? Don't suppose someone could draw me a picture how/where it should be wired in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 when you say turn the engine off and then on again, it's ok, do you mean just the ignition, or after the engine has fired up? Is it a stock fuel pump? Its the walbro 255 chris, there's no noise coming from the pump first time round when I turn the ignition on so I crank it until it eventually fires then If I switch engine off and turn the key just to put the ignition on I can hear the pump power up/primes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Ahh, the pump should prime when the ignition is turned on and then stop once up to pressure, do you hear this? Obvioulsy once you have started and primed the system it will retain pressure to then start instantly. this could be your issue though i dont know why it wouldnt prime striaght away!? ECU wiring maybe? sounds like im firing off in all directions now. Can someone confirm that it should prime on start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 It should, yes. The stock system will, if in good condition, hold rail pressure for a day or two without the pump being run after shut down. But nonetheless, the pump should run for couple or so seconds when the ignition is turned on, then in the absence of a crank trigger signal, close down. If the engine ecu sees a crank trigger signal it tells it the engine is being turned and to continue running the fuel pump. It could just possibly be an ignition switch fault. It may be a wiring issue, or it may be something to do with the E-Manage thing, of which I have no knowledge at all. Leave the car overnight and BEFORE switching the ignition on bridge the fuel pump override terminals in the diagnostics socket. Then immediately try and start the cr with no pause between ignition on and cranking. If it fires up immediately either it's not priming automatically, or there's some other fuel pump control issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) I seem to remember Walbo pumps don't have anti drain back valves like the stock pumps. From cold, turn the ignition on (alarm etc) then off, then on again and then try and start it. Two primes might do the trick. I'm not 100% sure that supras do prime at key on, they run the pump when cranking but the only time I've heard one do the ubiquitous 3 second prime at key on for sure, is with aftermarket engine management. The stock ecu should do a cold start injector cycle at key on to prime the head with fuel. If you have next to no fuel pressure this will do very little. The engine has no fuel pressure sensor so it has no idea what pressure is in the rail. If you fit an AFPR with a gauge you will soon see if the system is priming the fuel rail at key on and by how much. Lyndon. Edited December 12, 2013 by Nodalmighty (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Actually, I am wondering myself now. I see so many on aftermarket ecu's that I am unsure if a stock one primes or not. Anyone with a stock ecu'd car and a (proper mechanical) fuel pressure gauge care to have a look please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Leave the car overnight and BEFORE switching the ignition on bridge the fuel pump override terminals in the diagnostics socket. Then immediately try and start the cr with no pause between ignition on and cranking. If it fires up immediately either it's not priming automatically, or there's some other fuel pump control issue. So I tried this last week but what I did different was my usual technique of turning ignition on and waiting a few seconds, that time it resulted in starting first time! this time round i followed your instructions and cranked it straight away but it took a while to start again? I seem to remember Walbo pumps don't have anti drain back valves like the stock pumps. From cold, turn the ignition on (alarm etc) then off, then on again and then try and start it. Two primes might do the trick. Lyndon. Iv tried this but no change? when it was stock n/a I would always switch ignition on wait 3seconds while the pump would Hum/buzz then start the car. The same noise was there when I fitted the walbro pump and even after I fitted the emanage ultimate but on 330cc injectors. From what I can remember, the point of which it started playing up was after 440cc 7mgte injectors and resistors went in? That's when I realised I couldn't hear the pump until I had got the car running, switched it off then ignition back on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berg Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Ive had my wolbro fitted for 6 months since i went na-t and ive never heard it prime once by ignition First test before the first start was worrying as i thought i would hear it but we didnt so was almost diagnosing problems when there wasnt one lol Could this not be a mapping related issue maybe something hasnt been done right for cold starting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Do you know how to tell (or smell...) when a car starts mad rich? Black smoke and a fuelly smell. Does it do that from a cold start after a lay up? If so the injectors may be leaking away rail pressure and pooling fuel behind closed intake valves, or in cylinders with the valves open. It would then take some considerable cranking to clear and fire. But I actually suspect that it's losing rail pressure back to the tank, and for whatever reason the pump takes a while to prime the rail to operating pressure, without furtling with the ignition. It needs fuel pressure gauge on it when it first gets cranked. Just let a half decent garage check it out, buying a fuel pressure gauge and adapters will be more expensive than paying a garage, unless you fancy having a gauge yourself for future projects? You may wish to consider if the emanage is somehow not allowing the pump to prime on ignition "on". But again, you need a pressure gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 12, 2013 Author Share Posted December 12, 2013 Ive had my wolbro fitted for 6 months since i went na-t and ive never heard it prime once by ignition First test before the first start was worrying as i thought i would hear it but we didnt so was almost diagnosing problems when there wasnt one lol Could this not be a mapping related issue maybe something hasnt been done right for cold starting? I'm not convinced its to do with the mapping but I could be wrong, I'm clutching onto it being a mechanical issue. Both my stock and walbro pumps have hmmmm'd on ignition but then my boot is empty. Do you know how to tell (or smell...) when a car starts mad rich? Black smoke and a fuelly smell. Does it do that from a cold start after a lay up? If so the injectors may be leaking away rail pressure and pooling fuel behind closed intake valves, or in cylinders with the valves open. It would then take some considerable cranking to clear and fire. But I actually suspect that it's losing rail pressure back to the tank, and for whatever reason the pump takes a while to prime the rail to operating pressure, without furtling with the ignition. It needs fuel pressure gauge on it when it first gets cranked. Just let a half decent garage check it out, buying a fuel pressure gauge and adapters will be more expensive than paying a garage, unless you fancy having a gauge yourself for future projects? You may wish to consider if the emanage is somehow not allowing the pump to prime on ignition "on". But again, you need a pressure gauge. There's no smoke on start up or fuel smell but it does stink after a run!?!? Think the next step then is to get a garage to hook a pressure gauge to it I'm not really interested in getting any more gauges it already looks like a space ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I was thinking more of a diagnostics gauge under the bonnet, on a short hose down to the union on the fuel filter. I have mine on quite a long thin hose so I can also have it on the passenger seat for on the road checks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Had a play with mine in the garage last night, on turn one if the key I hear the pump running, it's pretty noticeable I then turn the key to start and she fires with a second or two, fpr shows duel pressure on turn one of the key. If I let the pressure bleed away, then go from off to engine start she takes 3-4 seconds to fire depending on temperature . Again I hear the pump fire into action as I pass turn one. That's with pretty much an identical setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Had a play with mine in the garage last night, on turn one if the key I hear the pump running, it's pretty noticeable I then turn the key to start and she fires with a second or two, fpr shows duel pressure on turn one of the key. If I let the pressure bleed away, then go from off to engine start she takes 3-4 seconds to fire depending on temperature . Again I hear the pump fire into action as I pass turn one. That's with pretty much an identical setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Had a play with mine in the garage last night, on turn one if the key I hear the pump running, it's pretty noticeable I then turn the key to start and she fires with a second or two, fpr shows duel pressure on turn one of the key. If I let the pressure bleed away, then go from off to engine start she takes 3-4 seconds to fire depending on temperature . Again I hear the pump fire into action as I pass turn one. That's with pretty much an identical setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Sorry, stupid phone!!! cant edit on work computers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballsdeep Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 Thanks nick whats odd is why my pump only powers up second time round but only when it's been started? After its fired up I can turn the ignition on and off several times and I can hear it power up each time! I'm struggling to find time to work on it so I'm very grateful for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodalmighty Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 You wouldn't be the first person to connect a resistor pack with one across the coil feed or a feed to the igniter as they are all the same colour. Lyndon. So I tried this last week but what I did different was my usual technique of turning ignition on and waiting a few seconds, that time it resulted in starting first time! this time round i followed your instructions and cranked it straight away but it took a while to start again? Iv tried this but no change? when it was stock n/a I would always switch ignition on wait 3seconds while the pump would Hum/buzz then start the car. The same noise was there when I fitted the walbro pump and even after I fitted the emanage ultimate but on 330cc injectors. From what I can remember, the point of which it started playing up was after 440cc 7mgte injectors and resistors went in? That's when I realised I couldn't hear the pump until I had got the car running, switched it off then ignition back on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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