BPU or Hybrid.

[mikeyb10supra]

We've been through this before lol and I still disagree.

 

What you're comparing with those figures are polar opposites really.

 

"GOOD singled cars are very very pricey to setup well, hybrids are good becuase you have no mapping costs etc"

 

Come on now that's not really true is it. Hybrids do have mapping costs, higher fitting costs (than a small single setup) and require all the same supporting mods that a small single requires.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

 

I know we both disagree on this but in the grand scheme of things despite what anyone tells you a singled car with corners cut wont last long, there are a number of things that will bump price up way over what a hybrid car would be, downpipe, exhaust manifold, wastegate, wastegate ruturn pipe, airfilter, fuel rail, fuel regulator, mapping, and seeing as its an auto the gearbox wont last long so add torque converter and built transmission and then standalone mapping costs as well (numerous sessions).

 

Hybrids would not need any of this unless the user choses to use a standalone which in my eyes is not needed for hybrids as the stock ECU copes fine. Emanage would be perfect imo

 

I know were not going to agree on this but this is my view

 

If I were to go single I certainly would not cut corners and as mentioned would not leave any part of the car lacking in anyway which in the grand scheme of things would add up to a lot of money, im sure the singled guys would agree

 

Hybrids dont deviate much away from stock and only require very minor changes to be used hence the cost being a lot lower the power levels hybrids put out are not extreme enough to warrant the mods a single would need. The price is largely made up of labour charges

 

All my opinion of course

[Thorin]

Hybrids would not need any of this unless the user choses to use a standalone which in my eyes is not needed for hybrids as the stock ECU copes fine.

 

Well unless you're planning on running hybrids on the stock 440 jap injectors (which then there's absolutely no point in fitting hybrids!), then you DO need some form of mangement, even if that's just an SAFC you still need it "mapping".

[mikeyb10supra]

Well unless you're planning on running hybrids on the stock 440 jap injectors (which then there's absolutely no point in fitting hybrids!), then you DO need some form of mangement, even if that's just an SAFC you still need it "mapping".

 

see comment above re emanage

[Thorin]

Emanage would be perfect imo

 

see comment above re emanage

 

er yes I did, but what difference does that make? You still need some form of management due to the larger injectors, therefore you still need mapping.

[mikeyb10supra]

er yes I did, but what difference does that make? You still need some form of management due to the larger injectors, therefore you still need mapping.

 

granted, but again £300 with Ian C or over a grand to properly map a standalone for a well sorted single?? which is what this thread is all about.... price differences + with 550's why would you need mapping? the stock ECU would cope with them fine if needed, and dont get me wrong you could use an emanage on a singled car but the overall cost of a singled car vs hybrids would still be more

[mikeyb10supra]

Would be good to hear from people who have had both to give there view on cost

[Jamesy]

blimey - i'm still reeling from the cost of going BPU!!

 

*small fry*

[Thorin]

granted, but again £300 with Ian C

 

Are you assuming Ian C is happy to work on members cars for free?

 

+ with 550's why would you need mapping? the stock ECU would cope with them fine if needed

 

The J-Spec ECU wouldn't, it's designed to work with 440 injectors, therefore you need either a proper ECU or a fuel computer like the SAFC to control them. Both need mapping, but the SAFC to a lesser degree.

[mikeyb10supra]

 

The J-Spec ECU wouldn't, it's designed to work with 440 injectors, therefore you need either a proper ECU or a fuel computer like the SAFC to control them. Both need mapping, but the SAFC to a lesser degree.

 

 

Thats true and also a resitor pack as well which I had forgotten about still would work out cheaper than a standalone though no?? ;)

[Thorin]

Thats true and also a resitor pack as well which I had forgotten about still would work out cheaper than a standalone though no?? ;)

 

It would be cheaper undoubtedly, but I still don't believe that it's worth paying lets face it probably around £4k including fitting to fit hybrid turbos and supporting components to a BPU car, for the relatively small BHP increase. That's ~£80 per 1 BHP over BPU power levels? (assuming £4k cost and at 50BHP increase to 450BHP on hybrids)

 

All IMO

[mikeyb10supra]

It would be cheaper undoubtedly, but I still don't believe that it's worth paying lets face it probably around £4k including fitting to fit hybrid turbos and supporting components to a BPU car, for the relatively small BHP increase. That's ~£80 per 1 BHP over BPU power levels? (assuming £4k cost and 450BHP on hybrids)

 

All IMO

 

Thats fair enough, everyone is entitled to an opinion...cant argue with that

[Homer]

granted, but again £300 with Ian C or over a grand to properly map a standalone for a well sorted single?? which is what this thread is all about.... price differences + with 550's why would you need mapping? the stock ECU would cope with them fine if needed, and dont get me wrong you could use an emanage on a singled car but the overall cost of a singled car vs hybrids would still be more

 

Woah there fella!

 

£300 for the unit, installation AND mapping? A fields harness, EMB, sensor alone will be ~£350 2nd hand, then someone to wire it then someone to map it.

 

Standalone does not cost a grand! Mine was bought, installed and mapped for £550 (Actually worked our cheaper than the EMB install). I'm not saying you have to have an standalone when changing the injectors, just pointing out that your figures don't add up.

 

If the car same with 440cc injectors the stock ecu will not cope with 550's, it'll overfuel horribly accross the entire rev range, you need an aftermarket ECU and a full map when changing injector size

[gaz1]

it is cheaper to go hybrids and use 440s, but i went 55os with safc2, end of the day as said depends what you want, hybrids running at 400bhp keeping the twin setup, it will run a lot hotter than bpu, but will feel like a fast car and is enough for most people, i went the whole hog with fmic, new fuel pump too, but alas it was not enough for me:D people say you get so many problems with a single, if you went small single and had it properly setup it will be as reliable if not more so than hybrids, plus the single setup is far more easier to work on, but from my experience i would not bother with hybrids just a total waste of time for me, oh and money too cost me about 5k for hybrids inc labour, then about 4k on the single setup, both were a total waste of money, problem traders and my lack of knollege cost me dearly, i am now stripping every thing out and starting from scratch, which my estimate to complete it will be about 12k, but will be done right;)

[Stevie Boy]

Thats fair enough, everyone is entitled to an opinion...cant argue with that

 

 

Have you still got your Arnout manifold......?

[Gazboy]

I'm always surprised people think nothing of running 1.25-1.3 bar boost with no fuel control on stock turbos and injectors.

[tDR]

I'm always surprised people think nothing of running 1.25-1.3 bar boost with no fuel control on stock turbos and injectors.

 

tbh fuel control in that scenario isn't really the issue, it's timing. (from a safety perspective)

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[Gazboy]

tbh fuel control in that scenario isn't really the issue, it's timing. (from a safety perspective)

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

 

 

Maximum duty cycle once over 1.0bar boost? Sure it won't det but it isn't ideal imo, having said that weren't the BPU cars pinking during pre-spool of #2 at SRR recently?

[tDR]

Maximum duty cycle once over 1.0bar boost? Sure it won't det but it isn't ideal imo, having said that weren't the BPU cars pinking during pre-spool of #2 at SRR recently?

 

Failsafe causing the injectors to go 100% - hence silly rich AFR's on BPU cars. I've yet to see a report of a stock J spec injector failing as a result of this, in all my years on the forum. There is however noticeable det on BPU cars, again though who knows if this has killed any?!?

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[Gazboy]

Failsafe causing the injectors to go 100% - hence silly rich AFR's on BPU cars. I've yet to see a report of a stock J spec injector failing as a result of this, in all my years on the forum. There is however noticeable det on BPU cars, again though who knows if this has killed any?!?

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

 

Exactly- why would you want silly rich AFR's? I'd rather have the correct AFR's.

 

Det may not have holed a piston but it cannot be a good thing imo.

[tDR]

Exactly- why would you want silly rich AFR's? I'd rather have the correct AFR's.

 

Det may not have holed a piston but it cannot be a good thing imo.

 

Silly rich AFR's are safe. Obviously I'd rather have both correct AFR's and timing for the boost levels I choose to run, hence my spec including MAP ECU2 as per my sig.

 

Getting back to the thread at hand... as an example let's take my spec on a BPU+++++++ (you get the idea ) car. What's to stop me dropping in some 650cc PE injectors and a complete 'street' type small single turbo kit (a quality kit, say PHR) for c£2,200 total and enjoying 500+ bhp?!??

 

That's not a lot different expense wise to a decent hybrid setup for something that should, IMO, prove more reliable whilst producing more power. It's also then pretty easy to go up turbo sizes with the kit in place.

 

I would fit and map myself so maybe that lets you see my point of view. OK others would pay for fitting and mapping but the cost of fitting a single kit like above is less than that of a set of hybrids and the mapping cost is likely to be similar. In fact the small single should require less timing work since you're not dealing with the superheated air associated with hybrids.

 

I already have the supporting mods applicable to either setup for it to be reliable:

 

- MAP ECU2 (with replica fields harness) [includes high boost pressure MAP sensor and boost control]

- Innovate LC-1 Wideband with gauge, connected to MAP ECU2 input for logging

- Det Cans

- GReddy 3-Row FMIC

- Blitz Nur Spec R Exhaust System + full decats

- Max Air Cold Air Induction setup

- BoostLogic Transmission

- Precision Industries 4,000RPM Stall Torque Convertor

- 3x Trans Coolers + fans

- TRD 2-Way Mechanical Clutch Type LSD

 

Decent fluids, colder sparks etc. etc. which would all be renewed during the conversion process.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[grahamc]

granted, but again £300 with Ian C or over a grand to properly map a standalone for a well sorted single?? which is what this thread is all about.... price differences + with 550's why would you need mapping? the stock ECU would cope with them fine if needed, and dont get me wrong you could use an emanage on a singled car but the overall cost of a singled car vs hybrids would still be more

 

have a look at the link ecu... similar price to emanage and with ryan, mapping is easy an VERY cheap.

[mikeyb10supra]

Woah there fella!

 

£300 for the unit, installation AND mapping? A fields harness, EMB, sensor alone will be ~£350 2nd hand, then someone to wire it then someone to map it.

 

Standalone does not cost a grand! Mine was bought, installed and mapped for £550 (Actually worked our cheaper than the EMB install). I'm not saying you have to have an standalone when changing the injectors, just pointing out that your figures don't add up.

 

If the car same with 440cc injectors the stock ecu will not cope with 550's, it'll overfuel horribly accross the entire rev range, you need an aftermarket ECU and a full map when changing injector size

 

 

I dont recall ever saying the unit and mapping combined was £300. I was using the £300 figure as Ian's time mapping the unit, and if it cost a lot more I would certainly take it somewhere else to be done, im ducking out of this debate, if you guys are happy with you views and installs that all good in the hood, I mearly point out my take on things but starting to wish I hadn't bothered now.

 

Have you still got your Arnout manifold......?

 

yep still got it mate but unless I get a decent enough amount of money to chuck at the car, im not going down that route but will prob hold on to it for now in case I get the wedge in the future! you only need to look at the well setup cars on the site and see how much money goes into them to get a rough idea ie Nic, johnd-mkiv, supragold, mikeb and tlicense to name a few

[Homer]

I dont recall ever saying the unit and mapping combined was £300. I was using the £300 figure as Ian's time mapping the unit, and if it cost a lot more I would certainly take it somewhere else to be done, im ducking out of this debate, if you guys are happy with you views and installs that all good in the hood, I mearly point out my take on things but starting to wish I hadn't bothered now.

 

Okay, it just that it wasn't clear if you meant for mapping alone of for the whole install. £300 for mapping is about right. Twas only asking for clarification

 

Don't feel that you shouldn't have bothered fella, you rasied some important points which will now be available for other members to read and hopefully gain a better picture of the modification route to take.

[mikeyb10supra]

Okay, it just that it wasn't clear if you meant for mapping alone of for the whole install. £300 for mapping is about right. Twas only asking for clarification

 

Don't feel that you shouldn't have bothered fella, you rasied some important points which will now be available for other members to read and hopefully gain a better picture of the modification route to take.

 

thats fair enough I guess we all get passionate about what we feel is right, and as you said, I guess it gives the initial poster something to think about

[Suprash]

Not that my point is worth a lot but Im with Mikey, I reckon Hybrids still have a place in the market, and I know you guys like to quote cheap figures for getting singles installed and setup, but we have had cheap single kits posted on here all day long and as Darryl knows going single isnt cheap....

 

My hybrids didnt cost me anywhere near the 4k thats being reported, the AFC can be fitted yourself, and although Im still on 440's Thor adjusted my AFC once and said that my duty cycle wasnt 100%....but I do need 550's and then get the AFC setup again, but I still cant see how you can say setting up an AFC is the same ball park as a stand alone, maybe it is for guys that know a lot about it, maybe you can some bits yourself, but from someone in my position who has to rely on someone to fit and setup everything, I just cant agree.

 

I just cant see how you can put Hyrbids and singles in the same catorgory cost wise/setup wise, no matter how many prices you list claiming that, singles you will always need to throw a good 6k at to get a proper setup......

 

And Im still of the opinion that Hybrids are more streetable then a small single, I would miss low down pickup, and I know you guys will say but a small single can be fully spooled by the time your no.2 comes along, maybe so, but they are two totally different setups and there for you get a different feel back from each setup.....

 

Personally Shameless, I still think you would benifit from Hybrids if 450 is all you want........its close to stock, more streetable, and one thing I have found out from modifying over the years, is if you want less problems, keep everything as stock as possible, as the more you change/replace things the more open you are to new problems, and especially if your car is a every day driver like mine.......