Front Crank Main Seal?

Hi guys! Could it be it?

I found some oil under the car in the Garage and also a little "oil lake" on the plastic under cover. I have disassembled some parts already and found some little spots of oil on the Cam belt and cam gear. I'll post up some pictures tomorrow.

Some tips on how to get the Pulley bolt of? The little bugger killed me this evening

Also do i have to change the oil pump too? Or is the seal enough?

I think it was found out that one of the main causes of front seal failure was a worn pump, as the mating faces weren't square enough wearing the seal.

When changing the front seal I would always recommend changing the pump. The downfall with this is that it is a subframe off job. It is a massive tick in the box, as is changing the pulley wheel.... as you have all that stuff off anyway.

Use a long bar and the starter motor to undo the pulley bolt, or an air gun.

As Scott said if you've got any suspicions about your FMS then not replacing the Oil Pump is a definite false economy.

Is there any possibility to check if the Oil Pump is worn out? I've got no Problem taking everything apart again if i would have to. So i would leave the Pump as it is and just change the Seal first.

How much are the Oil Pump and seal anyways? ^^

Is there any possibility to check if the Oil Pump is worn out? I've got no Problem taking everything apart again if i would have to. So i would leave the Pump as it is and just change the Seal first.

 

How much are the Oil Pump and seal anyways? ^^

The oil pump is about £160 and the seal around £16.

I agree with you, if you can change the seal yourself and then see how it goes; you may be OK then for only £16 plus a few hours labour.

The oil pump isn't really a quick job at all - engine out or subframe off...

Is there any possibility to check if the Oil Pump is worn out? I've got no Problem taking everything apart again if i would have to. So i would leave the Pump as it is and just change the Seal first.

 

How much are the Oil Pump and seal anyways? ^^

No way to check without dismantling, from personal experience, just changing the seal is a waste of time, 99% of the time the seal fails due to pump wear, and believe me you will not be able to tell via pressure drop, as the pump is capable of maintaining pressure even when very worn.

The last thing you want is the seal failing on the autobahn, you can loose the entire contents of your sump in seconds, and unless it happens when your going slow and you notice the low oil light, you are looking at an engine rebuild, so not worth the risk.

Would be an argument for my girlfriend to buy some uprated components

Got some pics today, I'll post them up later. Still didn't manage to loosen the bolt, the starter method fucked up an extension of my ratchet ^^

I'm pretty sure by now that it is the main seal.

Is it worth getting an uprated pump or something second hand? Can the pump be rebuild?

Thanks for your answers so far!

Would be an argument for my girlfriend to buy some uprated components

Got some pics today, I'll post them up later. Still didn't manage to loosen the bolt, the starter method fucked up an extension of my ratchet ^^

 

I'm pretty sure by now that it is the main seal.

Is it worth getting an uprated pump or something second hand? Can the pump be rebuild?

 

Thanks for your answers so far!

Buy a new OEM one and stop fannying about. It will cost you about £150 and give you peace of mind.

Would be an argument for my girlfriend to buy some uprated components

Got some pics today, I'll post them up later. Still didn't manage to loosen the bolt, the starter method fucked up an extension of my ratchet ^^

 

I'm pretty sure by now that it is the main seal.

Is it worth getting an uprated pump or something second hand? Can the pump be rebuild?

 

Thanks for your answers so far!

Buy a new OEM one and stop fannying about. It will cost you about £150 and give you peace of mind.

LOL! Second hand oil pump:rlol: you cannot be serious, rebuild/referb

Buy a new pump and seal, if you want to have a modified pump, the do a little searching and you will find that all that is modified is the drain hole behind the seal, which is opened out to 5-6mm (can't remember which) and thats it.

For the sake of £180 don't risk killing your engine.

Buy a new OEM one and stop fannying about. It will cost you about £150 and give you peace of mind.

I think you're right in the end.

What about the uprated pump? Uprated seals? Anything like this available?

Thinking about going single some time so would like to upgrade anything that can be upgraded if it fails now

LOL! Second hand oil pump:rlol: you cannot be serious, rebuild/referb

I know i know. I get stupid ideas like that when it's getting late

Buy a new pump and seal, if you want to have a modified pump, the do a little searching and you will find that all that is modified is the drain hole behind the seal, which is opened out to 5-6mm (can't remember which) and thats it.

 

For the sake of £180 don't risk killing your engine.

What's the point of modifying the hole?

Just found the PHR modified pump. MVP suggests it too. Is it worth buying? Or should i buy the OEM model and modify it?

Don't touch it, if you fit a new pump and still have problems the seal will leak but not because of the pump. If you have a leak after changing the seal it is because of further wear.

Don't touch it, if you fit a new pump and still have problems the seal will leak but not because of the pump. If you have a leak after changing the seal it is because of further wear.

That doesn't quite make sense:blink:?

The only other scenario i can think of for a FMS leaking would be if the crankshaft nose (where the seal contacts the shaft) is because its damaged/got a ring worn into it from the seal, which shouldn't normally happen.

Don't touch it, if you fit a new pump and still have problems the seal will leak but not because of the pump. If you have a leak after changing the seal it is because of further wear.

Didn't understand that one? I have to change the seal and the pump or just the seal. The oil leak is just to big to leave it.

You are scaring me Ricky...

Didn't understand that one? I have to change the seal and the pump or just the seal. The oil leak is just to big to leave it.

 

You are scaring me Ricky...

I couldn't make sense of Dudes remark either,

Sorry don't mean to freak you out about your motor, just explaining another possible but unlikely reason for a seal leak, the crank interface where the seal sits only normally wears enough to cause a leak when the engine has done pretty extended millage, or some grit or something has entered the seal and become lodged, but that would be pretty unusual,

The other option is that the crank has been damaged in that area previously and worn the seal enough to leak,

But like i said i would bet on the cause being the pump, just trying to cover all angles;)

When mine went it was definitely the Oil Pump. That is also believe to be the cause of most, if not all FMS failures, due to increased pressure against the seal from a worn pump. The argument, which I think came mainly from the states, that it was the Crank Interface was largely discounted as being possible but very unlikely.

This problem with pumps had been identified already, which is why pumps with modified drain holes are around (it allows more excess pressure to escape to avoid stressing the FMS). CW said at the time that the Supra pump has a very small drain hole.

ETA - More reading here where this was discussed at length: http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=108524&highlight=engine

To summarise all 22!? pages there my engine was sorted out by its new owner by replacing the pump with a good OEM one after just changing the seal didn't work for me. If I were you I would check your pump is worn (just in case) and then replace it with a genuine OEM one, along with the FMS. The only question I would ask is what caused your pump to wear in the first place. Mine was due to crap getting into the engine from some head work (I believe), but it might be worth checking while you've got access to the engine.

I think Dude is saying the problem is not because the pump is worn, its something else, engine worn?

I had a nightmare with this on my old red car, even with a pump change i still had the problem, trouble is i had the wrong people working on my car back then so i never knew what the real problem was.

I think Dude is saying the problem is not because the pump is worn, its something else, engine worn?

 

I had a nightmare with this on my old red car, even with a pump change i still had the problem, trouble is i had the wrong people working on my car back then so i never knew what the real problem was.

Exactly JP a modded pump will only mask other problems not cure them. titan don't use them in their engines, the stock pump was designed to a job which it mormally does for between 70,000 - 100,000 miles why would you think you know better and drill a big kin hole in it, I tried it once and would not bother again.

Exactly JP a modded pump will only mask other problems not cure them. titan don't use them in their engines, the stock pump was designed to a job which it mormally does for between 70,000 - 100,000 miles why would you think you know better and drill a big kin hole in it, I tried it once and would not bother again.

OK so standard OEM.

If it is the case that the Pump is designed for 70-100k miles then i would say that there is no other cause than that it is just worn out and old. Car is a 1996 RZ and has run about 80k miles and the pump wasn't changed for sure. But i will definitely have a close look at the oil and sump when changing the pump. Really hope it's just normal wear and not something more.

What should i change with the pump and the main seal? Can someone give me part numbers?

Depends what you want to spend lol.

Since you have it off I would go with the pulley wheel and the water pump if they have never been replaced, and both belts.

I think Dude is saying the problem is not because the pump is worn, its something else, engine worn?

 

I had a nightmare with this on my old red car, even with a pump change i still had the problem, trouble is i had the wrong people working on my car back then so i never knew what the real problem was.

So what was the problem Jamie? was it down to crankshaft interface being worn or damaged? or where you one of the very rear cases of badly seating rings etc causing enough pressure to add to the existing oil pressure behind the seal?

Exactly JP a modded pump will only mask other problems not cure them. titan don't use them in their engines, the stock pump was designed to a job which it mormally does for between 70,000 - 100,000 miles why would you think you know better and drill a big kin hole in it, I tried it once and would not bother again.

IMO opening out the drain hole by about 1.5mm is a good idea, as the hole was put the for a good reason, the oil pump no matter what condition WILL leak a certain amount of oil past the mating surfaces during normal operation,( i will add that this will depend on manufacturing tolerance's which in most cases is not to great standards as most aftermarket spares are pattern from a third party manufacture)

it cannot completely fail to leak! so if the drain hole was not there, the would be a thriving business in replacing FMS LOL!

Now Supras and in particular TTs and single turbos, due to safe mapping run on the rich side, so the oil suffers a certain amount of dilution/contamination which is not good for the engine bearings anyway, and in particular the oil pump seems to suffer the most, and hence as it suffers from premature wear, and leaks more and more oil, which is why a lot of FMS are overwhelmed by the excess pressure behind it, as the drain is not able to disperse the pressure quick enough at higher RPM (where most seals fail) so its not a bullshit mod! its done for a very good reason

So what was the problem Jamie? was it down to crankshaft interface being worn or damaged? or where you one of the very rear cases of badly seating rings etc causing enough pressure to add to the existing oil pressure behind the seal?

 

 

I dont know, cant have been a damaged/worn crank as it was brand new, id guess it was a fitting issue but will never know, one of them larger seals fixed it iirc. that car was a bodge when i look back now, at the time i knew no better.

I dont know, cant have been a damaged/worn crank as it was brand new, id guess it was a fitting issue but will never know, one of them larger seals fixed it iirc. that car was a bodge when i look back now, at the time i knew no better.

I would bet my mortgage on it being a fitting issue.

If you push the FMCS as far in as it will go, it will block the passage way for the oil to drain back into the sump.

This means the excess oil from the pump builds up behing the seal, and effectively pumps it off of the housing.

Unless you're a specialist on 2JZ engines, then you're not going to know about this, so most run of the mill garages will just hammer the seal in as far as it will go = oil all over the floor.

I would bet my mortgage on it being a fitting issue.

 

If you push the FMCS as far in as it will go, it will block the passage way for the oil to drain back into the sump.

This means the excess oil from the pump builds up behing the seal, and effectively pumps it off of the housing.

 

Unless you're a specialist on 2JZ engines, then you're not going to know about this, so most run of the mill garages will just hammer the seal in as far as it will go = oil all over the floor.

Good point! forgot that one, guess i expect garages to be more on the ball, glad i prefer to do stuff myself.