Stock air box

[blitz supra]

Any chance of a "i'm a tit make it really basic" info on HKS induction kit? what sort of gains would i expect? Cost? Does it make the fuel situ any worse? etc etc havent searched yet just seen this post.

 

Pics would be good if anyone could oblige. I take it the induction kit works best on a de-cat?

 

Have a N/A which is quick and revs nice but feels like somethings strangling it.......

 

pm me with your email address , I will send you photos of mine.

 

My personal view is yes the standard intake strangles the NA.. I'm having a custom pipe made to replace the rubber pipe to that has the resonator boxes etc between the kit and throttle housing,

 

Mine revs better , picks up better, in general my car is totally different with the standard box on

[blitz supra]

was it you that also said somewhere that you get over 35mpg on a motorway journeys?

 

 

yes ...

 

80mph light throttle "constant speed " and it returns fantastic mpg,

 

Hence longer journeys we actually use the Supe rather than the RX8

 

Well set up , maintained and correct tyre pressures plays dividens

 

being a manual too may perhaps play a part too ?????????

 

Either way it makes ownership that little bit more enjoyable not worrying about big fuel bills

 

 

Saying that I just filled back up again to the brim again after a week commuting to work and back

 

Topped her back up and could only put in 23 litres. i've covered 135 miles so thats roughly 26 mpg around town and a little bit of dual carriageway.

[Nic]

i have a hks induction kit im looking for a standard box to put back on anyone selling standard or want to swap for hks

 

I'd also recommend re-fitting the standard airbox.

 

Make sure you get an NA airbox, as the TT one is slightly different and will not fit.

[Digsy]

My personal view is yes the standard intake strangles the NA.. I'm having a custom pipe made to replace the rubber pipe to that has the resonator boxes etc between the kit and throttle housing,

 

And yet somehow, on a TT which has to flow about 1.5 times as much air, its perfectly fine...

[JohnA]

*Big* gains in 'noiz' and bling.

 

Yep, that you get alright.

[blitz supra]

And yet somehow, on a TT which has to flow about 1.5 times as much air, its perfectly fine...

 

On a TT probably is..

 

Same with Skylines they are very restricted by standard Air filter and exhaust,

 

NA is very different to TT,

 

Same as if you take both cats out of a TT its not as ear deafeningly loud as a NA with boths cats out,

 

Most of the neg comments on here are from TT owners, not NA owners who actually drive them on a daily basis and can see a benefit or not on "their NA"

 

As a NA owner who dives one every day i have found the Induction kit to be beneficial to "my car", so really this argument can go on and on ... but "i see benefits" with it on my car ...

 

My answer would be if you fit one of your NA if you see benefits well and good

 

if you don't put your Air box back on.. simple

 

 

Personally my Air box will not be going back on

[JohnA]

On a TT probably is..

 

Same with Skylines thwey are very restricted by Air filter and exhaust,

it's not the same at all, the skyline airboxes are undersized compared the the supra.

Try again

 

Same as if you take both cats out of a TT its not as ear deafeningly loud as a NA with boths cats out,

How is it the same?

Do you even know that the turbines also act as silencers? That missing deafening acoustic energy is what drives the compressors.

 

Best is to stick to figures.

Measurable things. Something we can replicate.

When you can measure any difference, let us know.

 

Until then we're talking bull, fluff and innuendo.

and urban myths.

and internet rumours.

and subjective exaggerations.

and 'seat of pants' dynos (which are pants indeed)

 

Where are the MythBusters where you need them?

 

[blitz supra]

it's not the same at all, the skyline airboxes are undersized compared the the supra.

Try again

 

 

How is it the same?

Do you even know that the turbines also act as silencers? That missing deafening acoustic energy is what drives the compressors.

 

Best is to stick to figures.

Measurable things. Something we can replicate.

When you can measure any difference, let us know.

 

Until then we're talking bull, fluff and innuendo.

and urban myths.

and internet rumours.

and subjective exaggerations.

and 'seat of pants' dynos (which are pants indeed)

 

Where are the MythBusters where you need them?

 

 

Yep i know they act as silencers

 

Thats what i'm getting at its a different car,

 

So what "perhaps " what works very well on a NA is complete rubbish on a TT... agree ??

 

 

All i'm saying is I see benefits with my car when i switch between the 2x boxes,

 

Whats good for my car maybe awful for someone elses...

 

 

Most issues i think with kits is heat soak, (worse on a TT with the extra under bonnet heat) as Colder dense Air = more power

 

You even benefit with a standard box on when its late at night or very cold weather,

 

You hear many people say their car goes better at night, simply due to the incoming air being colder and dense

 

 

I remember many centuries ago when i started driving, i had very highly tuned minis, they actually ran better with standard air boxes as a filter on top of the engine is the worst place for heat soak... but hey we were young then ... what did we know!!! we didn't even think about cold feed pipes back then...

 

 

This is a common debate... which will always get pros and cons

but this is good as we get views on whats good and whats not on our cars

 

It gives us insight into what we find each has benefited our cars and what simply doesn't work

 

I've benefitted, but another NA may run like a bag of ss+++ with it on.

 

This has been a good thread loads of pros and cons.

 

Its been a good read and some great input that gives us something to think about when chosing a mod

 

Cheers guys

[Ian C]

If only we could measure "better throttle responsiveness" accurately, we could put FSE and Ecotek out of business

 

But seriously, you do know Digsy has been designing these very engine bits for years, and he also drives, on a daily basis, an NA? His experience in such matters should be listened to.

 

I was wondering if you had anything like a dyno pull before and after - a bit ott for a filter swap I suppose but it'd be easy to do mechanically speaking.

 

-Ian

[blitz supra]

If only we could measure "better throttle responsiveness" accurately, we could put FSE and Ecotek out of business

 

But seriously, you do know Digsy has been designing these very engine bits for years, and he also drives, on a daily basis, an NA? His experience in such matters should be listened to.

 

I was wondering if you had anything like a dyno pull before and after - a bit ott for a filter swap I suppose but it'd be easy to do mechanically speaking.

 

-Ian

 

Sorry if i sound negative, I am listening to everyones views, this is what makes it such interesting reading. other views and experiences

 

That would be interesting ,

 

I will perhaps in the near future do that experiment on a dyno and see if there are actual noticable differences.

 

But with mine there is quite a big noticable difference.

 

But then no 2 cars are the same ...

 

I've driven many other any NA's and "some" of them have been real slouchs, won't rev etc etc

 

I think alot of it is how well in tune your car is to begin with... Timing etc etc

 

For a NA mine is quite quick compared to other NA's (Mainly Autos) i've driven,mine is a Manual though, and to be honest mine doesn't disapoint me, which is why i just don't understand the constant NA put down thing

[Burna]

I was wondering if you had anything like a dyno pull before and after - a bit ott for a filter swap I suppose but it'd be easy to do mechanically speaking.

 

-Ian

 

Isn't it still really hard to get real figures as they run with the bonnet up? Just wondering if we would see much heat soak in that particular test.

[blitz supra]

Isn't it still really hard to get real figures as they run with the bonnet up? Just wondering if we would see much heat soak in that particular test.

 

One or two questions i would ask you guys advice on though lastly as i feel I have nothing more to input into this is

 

If induction kits are so bad why do all the large Jap Companies, HKS, Blitz to name a few produce them,and extensive testing would have been carried out and they have a hotter climate.

 

Now bear in mind they have been doing this long before we in the UK got into the Jap scene, And all the high power cars you see all have kits with various ingenious cold Air feeds

 

Why when peole go single don't they simply run a new pipe to the stock filter, yet most run a induction kit .

Surely a kit would have serious heat probs with a single Turbo over the Twin stock set up, ????????

 

So although you have increased power etc with a large Turbo the knock on effect would be loss of power due to heatsoak ??

 

You rarely see high power cars (not just Supes) with stock filters,

 

The best set up would surely be those high flowing in line canister filters,,

 

but then again i suppose thats just getting back to a sort of stock Air box but prettier ... dohh !!

 

 

Good input guys,

 

Thanks

[Darren-K]

I'd also recommend re-fitting the standard airbox.

 

Make sure you get an NA airbox, as the TT one is slightly different and will not fit.

 

AGREED,.

ive done this recently,.

 

took the HKS off and slammed a standard air box in and my N/A feels much better,much more responsive and the revs seem to climb higher / smoother

[Dave]

well sorry but i have to agree with blitz when i changed my std box for an apexi induction kit i noticed a big difference revs easier. sounds different im not claiming any more bhp the car just feels better. my std box is staying in the garage.i dont care whatothers may say about this that and the other i want it on there and thats it.

p.s i havent yet seen a tuned supra TT engine without an induction filter .

[Dave]

i would like someone to tell me why the std box is better than induction.the two intakes that are on there are rubbish. the rad one well i cant see where that gets its airflow from cause my horns are in the way [i took it off] and the other one isnt much better.now i have a 4 inch diameter pipe direct from outside onto the induction filter. its fully sheilded.so how would i gain by going back to std .

[Suprash]

[sticks kneck out]

 

Guys, I reckon this purely preferance.........

 

Ian, Jonn and Digsy, now I have been around long enough not to insult your intellegence in such matters as trust me Im a singled cell organism with no brain compared you guys but you say to Blitz has he got proof that it works better, and to play devils advocate, have you guys got any proof that its more detrimental ??

 

I know we have said for years now that an induction kit looses power due to heat soak, but at the end of the day you dont see any big powered cars with standard air boxes.

 

Darren, how does your standard air box allow your engine to rev higher, its pre-set by the ECU as to its cut off, cleaner or colder or better filtered air only allow a bigger bang, or a cleaner bang, sorry dude but I'll rubish that......no offence mate, and not trying to start any banter

 

Personally, I can understand the heat soak issue in theory, when your sat in traffic, but on the same token your engine isnt then running at 4,000revs with 1.2 bar of boost through it, its idling. I'd like to know exactly how much heat seak there is compared to normal when you have air flow being blown through the front of your car at 60mph, I very much doubt theres much heat soak sat about then, the force of the air through the front of the car I think would easily over come this. And this is what I reckon, its a well thought theory, but its only a theory.....

 

And Blitz, Im not siding here, purely devils advocate.....

 

[/pulls kneck back in]

 

[affney]

just finished putting my heat shield and cold air feed and to be honest it has made a slight difference for the better at higher speeds but then again i havnt had the standard box on to try that out. definately alot of different views on this subject

[affney]

another question to throw in the pipeline while this discussion is going on i know on my brothers m3 he has air ducts going from the front bumper to the brakes to keep them cool is it the same in a soop and if you put a cold air feed in the way would it effect the brakes

[blitz supra]

[sticks kneck out]

 

Guys, I reckon this purely preferance.........

 

Ian, Jonn and Digsy, now I have been around long enough not to insult your intellegence in such matters as trust me Im a singled cell organism with no brain compared you guys but you say to Blitz has he got proof that it works better, and to play devils advocate, have you guys got any proof that its more detrimental ??

 

I know we have said for years now that an induction kit looses power due to heat soak, but at the end of the day you dont see any big powered cars with standard air boxes.

 

Darren, how does your standard air box allow your engine to rev higher, its pre-set by the ECU as to its cut off, cleaner or colder or better filtered air only allow a bigger bang, or a cleaner bang, sorry dude but I'll rubish that......no offence mate, and not trying to start any banter

 

Personally, I can understand the heat soak issue in theory, when your sat in traffic, but on the same token your engine isnt then running at 4,000revs with 1.2 bar of boost through it, its idling. I'd like to know exactly how much heat seak there is compared to normal when you have air flow being blown through the front of your car at 60mph, I very much doubt theres much heat soak sat about then, the force of the air through the front of the car I think would easily over come this. And this is what I reckon, its a well thought theory, but its only a theory.....

 

And Blitz, Im not siding here, purely devils advocate.....

 

[/pulls kneck back in]

 

 

Great input, to a great debate

 

Listen guys its not about who's right and wrong, its about does it make a difference and do you notice a difference ?

 

Not trying to side or belittle someone

 

I would say though there is alot of prove it makes a difference, but no proof the std box is better,

 

Heat soak is the key to losing power if not fitted correctly,

 

In motorsport particularly rallying, Cone filters are used not std Air boxes, and yes most tuned cars you see have induction its, which does make you think

 

There must be benefits if done properly, the standard intake on a Supe i would agree is poor, and if you think about it although the Supe is designed as a high performance car, in Japan that is irrelevent as they are all limited to 180kmh anyway, so really anything sporty is just a status symbol anyway, the car will never be used to its full potential,

which is maybe why whenever you see anything out of the performance houses they have kits on, no doubt they have put the theory to the test

The Skyline is a classic example so heavily restricted with JDM Intake and exhaust,

 

As i've said earlier my Supe has benefited from a kit, and in the near future out of interest (and money available) i will get my friends garage to dyno it with both on, although that will be a hard experiment as the bonnet will be open so that blows the heat soak theory ...

[blitz supra]

another question to throw in the pipeline while this discussion is going on i know on my brothers m3 he has air ducts going from the front bumper to the brakes to keep them cool is it the same in a soop and if you put a cold air feed in the way would it effect the brakes

 

yeah for cooling, but the brakes would never get that hot on a road,(i'd hope anyway)

 

styling gimmick i'd say for a road car

[Class One]

 

yeah for cooling, but the brakes would never get that hot on a road,(i'd hope anyway)

 

styling gimmick i'd say for a road car

 

Really, I used to get the brakes discs glowing on my works Rover 827's Vauxhall Omegas, Vauxhall Vectras and even the ducted BMWs 5 series. But then again, I can be a bit hard on them.

[blitz supra]

just finished putting my heat shield and cold air feed and to be honest it has made a slight difference for the better at higher speeds but then again i havnt had the standard box on to try that out. definately alot of different views on this subject

 

Take it you got the pics then ??

[blitz supra]

Really, I used to get the brakes discs glowing on my works Rover 827's Vauxhall Omegas, Vauxhall Vectras and even the ducted BMWs 5 series. But then again, I can be a bit hard on them.

 

 

lol!!

 

Didn't work wonder why you got through pads so quick!!

 

And you owned up to to a Rover 820 !!! LOL!!

[Digsy]

Let's just put things in perspective and get a few facts into the mix.

 

First off, an aftermarket induction kit will certainly have a lower pressure drop across it than the standard airbox. I havn't done any real world measurements to back that up, but I reckon its a near on dead cert. Taking that fact insolation, aftermarket air filter are "better" than stock. No-one quote me out of context on that, though

 

The pressure dorp across a restriction will increase the more you try to flow air through it. Think of it like when you give yourself a love bite with the vacuum cleaner (everone does this, right?) Put it on low suck and you get a small hicky. Now, switch it to high and even though you've still got the same nozzle pressed on the same neck (hence the same air restriction, geometrically speaking) you get a BIG hicky. This is because the greater airflow causes a much bigger depression acorss the restriction. Generally speaking, any restriction will have a pressure / flow characteristic where the pressure drop increases with airflow.

 

Now, it was mentioned earlier that an induction kit was fine for the TT but "strangles" the NA. If you relate the above to the engine bay then you can see that this cannot possibly be the case, assuming that the NA airbox and filter are the same as the TT. The TT airbox can flow 6500RPM's worth of boosted air into the plenum, which is a hell of a lot more air than that going past the filter without the pressure drop becoming an issue. If the TT induction system can do this then it should be no problem for the NA. Because there is no boost pressure, the air flowing past the filter is less, so the pressure drop will be lower.

 

As for the issue with heat, its going to be a tricky one to bottom out without someone doing accurate charge temp measurements for aftermarket versus stock, but I rationalise it like this:

 

An intercooler won't refrigerate the induction air. Maybe it will knock off 5 degrees or so? Underbonnet temperatures can run nearly into three figures, so the potential difference between sucking air from outside to sucking it from the inside has got to be a benefit. Possibly a difficult one to actually quanitfy, especially when you consider that the TT will heat up the air with its turbo (even with an intercooler) whereas the NA will be using air at the same temp as whereever it sucks it from.

 

In the absence of proper measurements I can't justify putting an induction kit on an NA, because:

1) The stock airbox is good for the TT, so it should be more than good for the NA already bacause of the lower airflows.

2) Induction air at ambient temp has got to be better than air at underbonnet temps.

 

I think the big single guys fit induction kits because they dont have a lot of choice - and at the volumes of air they are flowing then the stock airbox might start to become a seriousl restriction. I still reckon that the reason you see so many tuned cars with induction kits is simply because "its what everyone else does".

 

I'd like to see some proper measurements done so that we can make a more informed decision, one way or the other.

[Nic]

Just to throw another reason into the debate about which is the better 'choice' - FILTRATION.

 

The filter element in the stock airbox, has a greater filtration area, compared to most pod filters.

 

Also the quality of the filter elements used on some aftermarket pod filters is questionable. Plus the location of a pod filter means it is more exposed, in comparison to a sealed airbox.

 

The reduction in filtration will allow more particles into the engine, which will subsequently lead to greater engine wear.

 

This old article was an attempt to test the performance of a number of aftermarket pod filters.

 

http://mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/2/index.html