Dragonball Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Not to sound too pedantic but enrich = quality of fuel in my book and the pressure does equate to the flow under boost in your explanation? Pressure does not 'enrich' a mixture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Paul E enrich = quality of fuel in my book and the pressure does equate to the flow under boost in your explanation? Pressure does not 'enrich' a mixture? Enrich refers to the Air to Fuel ratio having a higher fuel content than is necessary. More pressure does equal running rich if you see the last paragraph in CW's explanation. edit : missing word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I'll get my coat and lay off the red wine! However I still believe and have experienced a far better response once fitted with a new pump whatever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Paul E Not to sound too pedantic but enrich = quality of fuel in my book and the pressure does equate to the flow under boost in your explanation? Pressure does not 'enrich' a mixture? In automotive terminology enrichment is the changing of an air fuel mixure towards more fuel. By means of the regulator running the injectors at a higher pressure, yet their opening period (dwell) remaining the same, fuel enrichment occurs. That's the whole purpose of these gizmos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Jeez, backlash, but very interesting guys. Paul, it wasnt personal, but you did sell me an Apexi S-AFC for £150, that is no good to me, with stock injectors (doesnt mean I wont make use of it, gimee those cheap injectors). And you have also sold Earth a polished header tank and a FMIC top panel, why would he want these, hes not even going front mounted, but thats his beef with you. As I have always claimed I dont know shit, I just love my car, and you guys, we have a laugh when we meet up, a blat down the road doing silly speeds, and thats it. I want to make more of my car, but dont always know whats what. At the end of the day I look to people like you Paul, John, CW, Terry, Term, and all the other long time members from this board. CW, great reply, glad someone laid it down in the end, I hate it when a thread relates to something Im doing and everyone just argues over it, and nothing ever really gets concluded or resolved. Although too much to take in now, I will ponder it later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Ashley Willis Jeez, backlash, but very interesting guys. Paul, it wasnt personal, but you did sell me an Apexi S-AFC for £150, that is no good to me, with stock injectors (doesnt mean I wont make use of it, gimee those cheap injectors). Listen Ash - I actually dont remember and £150 sounds like a real m8's rate and one that I would have put up a long time ago. The innuendo here is that I have tried conning you into buying stuff because you are 'gullable' This I wont have - send it back to me and I will refund it immediately 'And you have also sold Earth a polished header tank and a FMIC top panel, why would he want these, hes not even going front mounted, but thats his beef with you.' WTF? I know nothing about this at all - these are mainly cosmetic pieces that make the engine look 'bling'. (sure the FMIC cover has a function) Perhaps you should consult Rokka before posting this. BTW the battery cover will not increase the voltage or the ECU cover anyones sex drive OK? Every piece will come with a expectation warning!! I think perhaps that you should reconsider this post - it has hacked me off no end. I have no worries about you not purchasing from us if you have a problem - my integrity has been questioned for no reason and this I will not have Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by John Packham So if the mixture is OK under load, the FSE contributes nothing. Except a bit of safety !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Paul, it wasnt personal, but you did sell me an Apexi S-AFC for £150, that is no good to me, with stock injectors (doesnt mean I wont make use of it, gimee those cheap injectors). And you have also sold Earth a polished header tank and a FMIC top panel, why would he want these, hes not even going front mounted, but thats his beef with you. Why cant you use it then Ash ???????? Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Chris Wilson In automotive terminology enrichment is the changing of an air fuel mixure towards more fuel. By means of the regulator running the injectors at a higher pressure, yet their opening period (dwell) remaining the same, fuel enrichment occurs. That's the whole purpose of these gizmos. Does the narrowband O2 sensor not compensate for this ????? Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Wow, where did this one spring up from! Right my 2 pence worth, from experience, not theory: If you are still running stock 430cc JDM injectors then an FSE is an excellent idea, as due to it being both adjustable and rising rate FPR it will allow the standard injectors to flow more fuel. It needs an uprated pump to make use of it. However a SAFC is another nice addition as it will allow correction under load. At part throttle the stock o2 sensor should compensate and keep the engine as close to stoich as possible. As with all the things, ideally the S-AFC should be tuned via a decent wideband analyser. There are various dyno sheets demonstrating the FSE equipped cars performance. For example, when I was running hybrids, the addition of a pump ( via CW thanks) and an FSE cured the lean spot I had on change over. FSE & 550's. This is more tricky because unless you are running a single/bigger twins then you have enough injector. But an adjustable FPR is not a bad thing to have, especially with bigger injectors as it enables you to drop the static rail pressure as well as increase. Again if you are installing 550's to a JDM car, you should be upgrading the pump, & using a AFR adjustment device such as an S-AFC and should be having it tuned by someone using a wideband O2 analyser. There are many examples now of people with stock JDM injectors increasing the boost and blowing engines. This isn't bad luck. A better pump and FSE may have saved many of these. CW is spot on that too much fuel saps power, but I would take that any day over too lean and a holed piston. The ideal is 550's, UK pump, AFR adjustment device, & TUNING WITH A DECENT WIDEBAND. The FSE can rightly be seen as a fudge, but it's pretty cheap, an many people won't pay proper money for proper tuning. Right, I have fallen off my soap box now, hope it made sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick_Devlin Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Excellent... tech overload on a Wednesday morning! This is all good stuff guys, especially as I need to cure my machine running lean when #2 turbo comes on line. Some great info. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovatt Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 blimmey im off the board for a bit as im ill and look what happens to my thread lots of technical answers in there, pleanty to take in and make my mind up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Sorry guys just testing , thought the site had frozen all of a sudden Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I'll get me coat then (warm one ) seems everyone's cats have f***ked off with their tongues !!!!!!!!!! Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soonto_HAS_soop Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 So, not wanting to piss anyone off, the FSE is a fuel version of the bleed valve and boost?? Everyone wants to improve the fueling, without fcuking anything else up?? I know that Chris W likes the bleed valve idea, but I personally would go for a boost controller (but what do I know - gadgets I Like). Both can up the boost pressure, but each do it in a different way. I have an FSE and 440cc JDM injectors, but will be upgrading to side feed low impedence 550-680cc injectors (thanks to takakaira). But will probably keep the FSE. Someone call me a twat if I'm being stupid please, I'd rather that than a hollow piston!! Ben.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Soonto"HAS"soop Someone call me a twat if I'm being stupid please, I'd rather that than a hollow piston! Pistons are hollow you twat. (the twat thing was a joke, no offense like) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soonto_HAS_soop Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Thanks Jake!! :twak: I meant when you melt one!! But you already knew that!! :twak: Ben.. :twak: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Soonto"HAS"soop So, not wanting to piss anyone off, the FSE is a fuel version of the bleed valve and boost?? Everyone wants to improve the fueling, without fcuking anything else up?? I know that Chris W likes the bleed valve idea, but I personally would go for a boost controller (but what do I know - gadgets I Like). Both can up the boost pressure, but each do it in a different way. I have an FSE and 440cc JDM injectors, but will be upgrading to side feed low impedence 550-680cc injectors (thanks to takakaira). But will probably keep the FSE. Someone call me a twat if I'm being stupid please, I'd rather that than a hollow piston!! Ben.. Dude , nothing to do with boost , but its worth keeping as you can tailor your fueling with it , read Terry's post again , dont bother with the others Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soonto_HAS_soop Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 No dude, I meant that the FSE is the fuel version of the bleed valve with boost. It's cheaper than the full conversion to higher spoec injectors, as is a bleed valve when compared to a boost controller. Both have very expensive (correct) ways of doing it, but some are cheaper than others. Ben.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I wouldnt put it like that as i have an FSE and am happy with it but wouldnt give a bleed T house room , i wouldnt rely on the FSE to up the fueling but every little helps , if nothing else you know you have a new regulator !!!!! Dude:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soonto_HAS_soop Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I know what you are saying, neither would I. But running at upto 1.3 bar on stock injectors everything helps. I need new injectors, but as the clutch is slipping, and the exhaust has a hole in it, then it will have to wait!! Ben.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Ben, any adjustable Fuel Pressure regulator will allow the injectors to flow more, simply by increasing the static ( read at idle or off boost) fuel pressure. Simply the more pressure the more fuel they flow. The FSE is a relitively cheap adjustable FPR, and also rises at a rate higer than 1:1. As previously stated though, ideally you want an AFR device to trim any excess fuel out, and this is best done using a wideband O2. One thing I will add to all this is when I stated that the static pressure can be reduced as well, the injectors really should be tested at that pressure as you need to ensure the spray pattern of the selected injector is OK at the lower static. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashpoint Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 forgive my lac of knowledge but what is a wideband O2 sensor and what does it do. Droped my car at Leons on Wednesday to up the boost and he mentioned this but i didn't ask what it was for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Very basically, a wideband sensor will be put in your downpipe. This when linked to the exhaust gas analyser will read the air fuel ratio of you car under all conditions. You then tune the car to the correct AFR. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 To put my 2p worth in as well: I don't profess to know lots about engines or anything but have a BASIC understanding of how they work. However, I am a Project Engineer for a combustion engineering company and it would be fair to say that I know a bit about combustion. I personally think (from a purely combsution oriented point of view) that you the proper way is with an AFR to control the fueling properly. I work with boiler systems that are rated at 500MW+ (that's alot by the way) and they almost all use O2 trim, which in a realy basic form is an AFR. Its only ever worth increasing your fuel pressure/flow (they are relational to pipe size) if your engine needs it to combust with the air it is being supplied with. Otherwise you are wasting fuel and running rich. If you have less fuel you are running sub-stoichiometrically (lean) and this will not produce effective combustion either. The question that needs to be asked is which do you prefer when running these mods, from the sounds of it its better to run rich. This is CW territory and I would listen to the points he is making. IMO a FSE is a cheap way of getting a job done. That's not to say I don't like it but it should be noted by anyone that you get what you pay for. If you do it properly it is unlikely you will have any problems, if you try and trick/fool/play with the way the engine operates then you should be aware that there may be risks involved. I'm going now as I am confusing myself and have written far more than I ever imagined possible in such a short space of time:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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