Motec M1 Series

[np89]

What made you decide to go back to TDP in the end? Nice results, very lively for a TT Sequential!

 

 

[Jellybean]

Nice result, the graphs look like parallel operation though, do you know what RPM the VSVs are tuned for?

 

I did ask that question, I think around the 3800 mark he said , I would need to look at the map to confirm

I will have a look at the VSV setup later , I need to go back and have the Traction/launch control setup

 

He has a few projects with Fraser MacKellar on the M1 ; so he is going to ask Fraser about his sequential setup on his M800 ,we may be able to take advantage of his experience with the OEM setup

 

Interesting what Fraser comes back with, but he is in China the last while, communication channels are fairly locked down by the government

[Wez]

I am just basing this on the manifold pressure graph.

[Jellybean]

I am just basing this on the manifold pressure graph.

 

VSVs are all plumbed as per oem [emoji6]

 

 

 

[Wez]

VSVs are all plumbed as per oem [emoji6]

 

Great stuff, are you able to view the map, can you show the rpm activation points for each assigned VSV output?

[np89]

Great stuff, are you able to view the map, can you show the rpm activation points for each assigned VSV output?

It looks as though from the graphs, the characteristic MAP drop off and equivalent torque/power dip on the sequential switchover occurs at 4,250 rpm.

 

It looks very subtle, maybe the Motec is able to hold the first turbo boost on a bit longer so the switchover drop-off is less obvious?

 

Im no expert so thats just my initial thoughts on seeing the graphs.

 

 

[Jellybean]

Great stuff, are you able to view the map, can you show the rpm activation points for each assigned VSV output?

 

I'll try get the laptop on there tonight

[Jellybean]

Hi Wez

 

It is not as simple illustrating the rpm activation points for each assigned VSV output , I am currently in research mode

 

4 Optional Outputs for PWM Control of added actuators:

-- Duty Cycle tables using Engine Speed and Throttle or Manifold Pressure Axis

-- Activation based on Inlet Manifold Pressure or Throttle Position

-- Aux Output 1 includes tables for Ignition Timing Compensation, Fuel Volume Trim, and Fuel Mixture Aim

 

Mine is setup using Duty cycle tables per VSV and Manifold Pressure values to enable X VSV ; I need to look at my Duty Cycle Tables and logs to tell you more

[Chris Wilson]

The VSV's for sequential will just be either on or off, no PWM stuff, as far as I know. The wastegate solenoid will be PWM.

[Wez]

Do you know at what pressure each VSV is set to open, are the all the same?

 

Doing it based on MAP alone means the activation point, depending on the desired pressure could be anywhere in the rev range.

[Chris Wilson]

Who is that to Wez, me? If so, there will be at least a two axis map for the VSV's. RPM and MAP maybe, perhaps even a 3 axis map with throttle angle thrown in, too. Fraser MacKellar did read his notes to me once, but I was out and couldn't write anything down. He has it sussed though

[Wez]

Who is that to Wez, me? If so, there will be at least a two axis map for the VSV's. RPM and MAP maybe, perhaps even a 3 axis map with throttle angle thrown in, too. Fraser MacKellar did read his notes to me once, but I was out and couldn't write anything down. He has it sussed though

 

Not aimed at you Chris

 

Looking at the post above there are a number of options, some of which you include, another is purely MAP based which is what appears to have been used here. My preference would be MAP vs RPM, or if you wanted to get smarter then use the MAP vs RPM vs Throttle

[Jellybean]

The VSV's for sequential will just be either on or off, no PWM stuff, as far as I know. The wastegate solenoid will be PWM.

 

Correct!

[Jellybean]

Not aimed at you Chris

 

Looking at the post above there are a number of options, some of which you include, another is purely MAP based which is what appears to have been used here. My preference would be MAP vs RPM, or if you wanted to get smarter then use the MAP vs RPM vs Throttle

 

I had a look last night briefly , it is possible to do MAP vs RPM vs Throttle axis

 

From what I remember looking at the Duty Cycle Table, Activation point on the Rev range is determined by the duty cycle at each 1K interval up to redline

[Jellybean]

My map is at home but give you an idea

 

 

 

 

 

[Jellybean]

Said I would keep this up to date

 

Fuel Pressure

 

The ECU when fitted with a fuel pressure sensor, fuel pressure is part of the model and will be compensated for.

 

Trying to weight in cost versus benefit, is it worth fitting a sensor and associated costs to take advantage of this feature?

 

I did ask the Mapper to install what he recommended but this was never suggested

 

Trying to research a linear FPR , what companies make them , some general info

 

Motec Forum:

 

Fuel pressure data is a huge part of how the ECU will calculate the final injector duty. With a true VE fueling strategy I feel a fuel pressure sensor is a must., the use of fuel pressure in the VE model is a major part of the fuel volume calculation, as well as the Injector Differential Pressure calculation, so if you do not have a FP sensor, you need to make sure that the Fuel Pressure Default value is correct, and that the type of FPR that you are using is specified. If you use an FPR that has a non linear relation to the change in manifold pressure, I definitely would have a FP sensor installed.

 

Another area that catches people out is the Default value for the Fuel Temp, this can greatly effect the Lambda value if it is incorrect.

[Wez]

Taking the VE fuel stratgey out of the equation I would have FP for safety, ie pressure trips, even more so when running multiple pumps, if one fails you could lose an engine

 

So apart from the cost of sensor do you have to pay extra on the Motec to use it?

[Chris Wilson]

As part of a map, no, needless complication, but as Wez says, as a safety measure just monitoring pressure stays above X PSI V MAP sensor signal, it's worth having, IMHO.

 

The Bosch and most other fuel pressure regulators are linear. Pressure out rises linearly with boost / vacuum port pressures.

[Jellybean]

Thanks! Just got a sensor off Dave Rowe , Will install and setup the Bosch FRP this weekend ; will need some time on the dyno with the sensor , and still waiting on mapper to wire in traction control

 

In the notes on the firmware , fuel pressure sensor was highly recommended ; not too sure why it was not installed initially as he had free reign

 

Looking at the map Fuel Pressure default is set at 325Kpa , taught this would be set closer to 280Kpa as I am running off OEM pressure?

 

Toyota GTE Service Specs...

Fuel Pressure at Idle w/vacuum hose disconnected is 33-40psi (2.3 - 2.8 kgf/cm)

Fuel Pressure at Idle w/vacuum hose connected is 24-31psi (1.7 - 2.2 kgf/cm)

 

 

Warnings

 

I also have some warnings , Motec said to resolve them , Mapper said to basically ignore ; stuck between a rock and a hard place

 

 

 

Motec

 

These are two faults that I would resolve, as they provide crucial information on the engines operation to the M1.

 

The Translation Minimum for the Inlet Manifold Pressure Sensor is caused by the voltage signal being received being below the range of the translation table, this means that the M1 is not receiving a valid Manifold Pressure value, and could be calculating the engines load incorrectly. This will also potentially effect the rest of the engines operating range if the whole of the scale is wrong.

 

The Throttle Position Sensor Diagnostic is caused by the 0% of the pedal not being set, this should be resolved as well as it can effect the engines idle operation, amongst other areas.

 

Mapper

 

Thats manifold warning dose not mean there is a problem it just means that the value went outside the calibration pints but as the sensor is setup up linear its fine.

The other warnings are not a problem either.

 

Well then you need to get a full scale calibration for the map sensor which is not available. If the warning is yellow it dose not affect the calibration. If its red there is a problem.

 

Your partner package cant do a proper full scale calibration for the map sensor as it only has 2 load sites as per the John Read package.

 

There is nothing wring with the throttle being closed at 0%. That guy is being pedantic.

 

Throttle Setup - I am complete OEM

 

Interesting to compare settings

 

 

MAP Sensor -- I am running a non JZA80 OEM Denso Map sensor (need to get model number)

 

Error -- Translation Minimum 4 Voltage is below the minimum site on the Calibration Axis.

 

Not too sure why I am running a Sensor requiring manual setup as opposed to running a GM, Bosch, Denso sensors preset in the drop down

 

 

[Wez]

Looks like two easy fixes / tweaks, get your mapper to sort it when he is next playing with the car

[Jellybean]

My Mapper said to ignore the warnings , not much help ! Chasing him 4 months now to wire in the traction control , already paid for it too !

 

Was talking to the US Supra forum guys , posted the above and they where very helpful , as you said Wez easy fix ; not too sure why it is so difficult for my mapper to fix it

 

First,

 

Change the inlet manifold pressure sensor low voltage setting to 0.050V

 

Looking at it myself , I suppose we have 2 options , increase the Diagnostic low limit (Current inlet manifold pressure sensor low voltage setting is 1.513)or as you suggest the inlet manifold pressure sensor low voltage setting ; are there any implications for lowering the inlet manifold pressure sensor low voltage setting ?

 

Current setting

 

Proposed New setting

 

 

 

Second;

 

With the key "ON" and ECU powered, press "Q" while on the throttle postion sensor offset value. Make sure you are not touching the gas pedal.

 

 

 

Thrid,

 

Under the same settings as above for the key and ECU, select "Scale" value below "Offset". Press the pedal to the floor and then press "Q" again to set this value.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Jellybean (see edit history)

[Wez]

Without having played with that software I cannot say for sure, I would be careful it doesnt adjust the MAP sensor linearisation as your whole map could be knocked out.

 

Throttle sensor setup sounds pretty much like any other ECU with a simple calibration process, ie leave it alone, 0%, bury it in the ground, 100%, job done, again I have no experience with this particular unit or software

 

Why is your mapper unwilling to help, you have paid for him to map your car and it currently has two errors, surely they should address it

[Jellybean]

Thanks Wez, I followed up with Motec and John Reed who built the firmware

 

 

 

Hi Carlo,

 

Do not change the Inlet Manifold Pressure Sensor Translation table, if you do so, it will introduce an error into the MAP reading. As the values that the voltage relate to are hidden in the Package, you can't change them to suit the different voltage values. Currently your 1.513V value relates to a certain pressure being read by the sensor, if the Voltage value is changed to a different value without a corresponding change to the Pressure value, then you will most likely be reading a lower than actual value into the M1, i.e. 100kPa of Boost may actually be 150kPa. You can drop the Diagnostic value lower to remove the diagnostic error. You should also talk to John Reed about this, as He should look into the values for that sensor and confirm.

 

Stephen Dean

MoTeC Research Centre Melbourne, Australia

 

Just on a side note

 

My mapper keeps reiterating "Your partner package cant do a proper full scale calibration for the map sensor as it only has 2 load sites"

 

John said ,

 

MoTeC themselves changed the way pressure sensors are handled, and went to a 2 site translation table as part of these changes. You should only need to enter the provided minimum and maximum voltage for your sensor (and corresponding pressure data) and that is it. If the voltage happens to go below the minimum at times (which some pressure sensors will) then it will show translation minimum but it does not affect anything. Typically a MAP sensor will never show that error because they always sit at a higher voltage at atmospheric pressure (the only way to get a MAP sensor to minimum is pull full vacuum on it).

 

Why is your mapper unwilling to help, you have paid for him to map your car and it currently has two errors, surely they should address it

 

Good question!

 

Reason I just try and figure out things myself

 

Want to get over to Dave Rowe at some stage , probably cheaper just to fly him over (Problem is trying to get in contact with him, tried for 2-3 weeks, phone, email, facebook ) ; I know a very nice guy over here Martin Tracey with a Dyno room , 30 mins from the Airport

[Wez]

Exactly the reason I said to be careful before touching it, looks like they have taken away / hidden full sensor configuration and now using just a min and max value and assuming the sensor has correct linearisation

 

As with most sensors they have a spec sheet which states min and max, there will be an element of error / tolerance that exceeds these values which you are seeing, the ECU is basically saying that the configured min value is being exceeded.

[Jellybean]

Exactly the reason I said to be careful before touching it, looks like they have taken away / hidden full sensor configuration and now using just a min and max value and assuming the sensor has correct linearisation

 

As with most sensors they have a spec sheet which states min and max, there will be an element of error / tolerance that exceeds these values which you are seeing, the ECU is basically saying that the configured min value is being exceeded.

 

Thats my understanding too, I think the Diagnostic values are not set to correspond to this sensor (default settings); throwing an error