Will a N/A 5 speed 'work' with a TT?

[barneybrendan]

What about with a clutch that could handle more? Could the box handle more

 

if the clutch was uprated too much wouldnt that have an adverse effect on the gearbox.The gear change will be more snappy and put too much stress back into the box.

[davej705]

if the clutch was uprated too much wouldnt that have an adverse effect on the gearbox.The gear change will be more snappy and put too much stress back into the box.

 

When raven said 320bhp I thought that maybe the clutch was the weak link and maybe the box could handle more.

 

I agree though,the stress would probably increase

[supracars]

hmm NOW we are talking, i have fitted a 2.5tt into my mkiv (vid somewhere ill find it out) and with bpu its close to 380 and revs like a monster, smoother power as the both turbo's come on together at 2.5 thou revs and are fully in at 3 thou and lasts right upto 7.8 thou.

And fitted driectly to my W58, also as there is no rush like the 3.0 tt the box will last longer due to it being smoother power.

With the 1JZ there are some wiring to do where as the 2JZ plugs right in, but either way you will need a TT rev counter as the N/A dont work.

 

here is the link to the vid.

 

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=216371

 

I can supply a complete 1JZ TT with most parts needed for the MKIV and info to get it running from £750 - £850 depending on spec, so alot cheaper the 2JZ and with 440cc injectors in will hit 400hp with 420fbs torque, and lighter then the 2JZ and also sits lower in the car as its a shorter block.

 

im just wondering will a r154 mate with a 1jz tt easily enough??

[Homer]

Some good responses above, but some unclear ones too!

 

You can drop in a TT engine and use the NA diff and W58 however the clutch MUST be changed.

 

Just how well it will last will depend a great deal on how you treat it. From threads here and SF, 3rd gear on the boxes can be a killer (when the most torque over load is applied). The diff crown wheel on the NA is also a relative weak point but if you're not doing hard launches it will greatly reduce the risk of it lunching.

 

The reason the 5spd with NA diff can feel quicker through the lower gears is that it's geared much longer than the 6spd. It means that the acceleration in-gear will be a little slower and will have a small drop in torque between gears, but due to being held for longer during full boost will make it feel like it's on the power for longer. I've yet to see any real world acceleration outputs on an w58/TT setup, but the calcs say it will be a little slower than using the TT 6spd setup.

 

The real issue with the w58, IMO, is that it won't be a nice high speed cruiser, the rpm on the NA setup at motorway speeds is much higher than the cruise on the 6spd meaning a hell of a lot more rpm. Not so good for fuel consumption or niose, if like me you cruise at 90-100mph on the motorways.

 

 

However - all that said, it would not put me off using a NA setup with a TT engine if a 6spd and/or TT diff setup isn't affordable immediately. You just need to understand the risks and compromises before making your decision. If you're happy with them then go for it

[comorin219]

the W58 is a good strong box & is used quite a lot in kit cars, they even use them in Rover v8's producing 350+ bhp, some kit car builders even prefer them over the V160 especially the later W58 with the steel sandwich plate.Think Lotus even use it now as do some Cobra builders

[RobD]

I'm mating my TT engine to my W58 for a while now whilst I source bits for my R154, from what I've read and questions I've asked it seems that the W58 box is capable at stock TT levels but up until full bpu it can last without failure.

 

If your planning on staying with a W58 some people have fitted a weaker clutch so that would be the first to go instead of the gearbox, but this would get quite expensive if you drive hard.

 

If your quite a tame driver then you maybe fine at BPU, but this really depends on the condition of the gearbox to begin with and having the oil changed regular as clockwork!

 

Personally the R154 box from a mk3 supra/ soarer is a good/ cheaper replacement to the getrag, but as I'm finding out it's getting the rest of the bits needed to fit it to a mkiv ( gear extension, bellhousing etc if you get a R154 box from a mk3).

[Homer]

Personally the R154 box from a mk3 supra/ soarer is a good/ cheaper replacement to the getrag, but as I'm finding out it's getting the rest of the bits needed to fit it to a mkiv ( gear extension, bellhousing etc if you get a R154 box from a mk3).

 

That's the "gotcha" I'm finding too Rob. The boxes can be had for less than a v16* but all the other parts needed and the work involved makes it such a headache I'd personally rather put up with the w58 (and take the risk it goes) until I can afford a v16* box.

[supracars]

Some good responses above, but some unclear ones too!

 

You can drop in a TT engine and use the NA diff and W58 however the clutch MUST be changed.

 

Just how well it will last will depend a great deal on how you treat it. From threads here and SF, 3rd gear on the boxes can be a killer (when the most torque over load is applied). The diff crown wheel on the NA is also a relative weak point but if you're not doing hard launches it will greatly reduce the risk of it lunching.

 

The reason the 5spd with NA diff can feel quicker through the lower gears is that it's geared much longer than the 6spd. It means that the acceleration in-gear will be a little slower and will have a small drop in torque between gears, but due to being held for longer during full boost will make it feel like it's on the power for longer. I've yet to see any real world acceleration outputs on an w58/TT setup, but the calcs say it will be a little slower than using the TT 6spd setup.

 

The real issue with the w58, IMO, is that it won't be a nice high speed cruiser, the rpm on the NA setup at motorway speeds is much higher than the cruise on the 6spd meaning a hell of a lot more rpm. Not so good for fuel consumption or niose, if like me you cruise at 90-100mph on the motorways.

 

 

However - all that said, it would not put me off using a NA setup with a TT engine if a 6spd and/or TT diff setup isn't affordable immediately. You just need to understand the risks and compromises before making your decision. If you're happy with them then go for it

 

I dont know much about ratio calculations but ive experienced that by having a tt auto diff the revs are much lower at top end speeds.

[RobD]

The bits are about just not in the uk, there's a bit of digging to do before you unearth the parts

 

It doesn't help much that I can't seem to set up an account on the mark 3 supra owners to get buts off there

[Scooter]

I think it's potentially a good plan if you are happy (I know I am) with stock TT power........

 

Personally I would look for an NA with a LSD and ABS and then be very careful selecting a tt engine as this IMO is where you will make or break the project.........a good TT engine with an uprated clutch and I think it would be fine for many many miles.

 

I went out in Trig's car that had this exact setup (perhaps even slightly modded) and it was very lively and he pushed it quite hard and it didn't give up instantly and still hasn't afaik........stock power and road use and you are likely to be fine.

 

I would keep an eye on the 6 speed tt's too though, as when we approach Christmas as there always seems to be price dip..........

[little num]

Well as most people will know me and BIGNUM do alot of trackdays - driftdays and i have been giving my W58 box some stick with drifting around islands with 285 - 35 - 18 R888's on the back so alot of grip.

Clutch is a 6 paddle race series from paul (wifbits) and lightweight flywheel, but still box seems as good as the day i fitted the 1JZ.

Car is fully stripped so i can hear all noise's from it and sounds good, i do change the oil every 6 months.

My N/A diff still has 1 mount and is a A01B so is a slipper, i dont get wheel hop as some people do.

As for motorway speeds HOMER is right at 90 its revving at 3 thou but is great for ripping off as your always on boost lol.

Ive had a V160 and hated it, always changing gears and was like a tractor to change gear, also if i blew that was talking £2000 to replace.

If i was going to do another 1jz personally id go for the R154 from a soarer as it fits right in but they are very very rare.

So all in all if you have a decent W58 then 380bhp from my experiance wouldnt be a problem.

Since fitting my 1jz I have just installed some CT12A Turbo Technics HYBRIDS that boost up alot more agressive and come in with a kick at 1.2 BUT im yet to have it rolling roaded as my injectors are 100% but will be fitting some 440cc in soon and maybe try 1.4 lol really give it all a good testing.

 

Its all down to cost at the end of the day, i cant afford £2000 for a V160 so will stick with my W58 until firther events stop me.

The way i look at it is real nice N/A with slipper ABS like mine lol, for £2700 then TT engine (1JZ £1000 ALL IN - 2JZ £1700) so your upto £3700 for 1JZ TT running 350bhp easy on a w58, so get this right £4000 and you have a TT MANUAL SUPRA easy.

Edited October 31, 2010 by little num (see edit history)

[marbleapple]

Guys thank you very much for the responses. Very useful.

 

Special thanks to Homer his detailed post and for explaining it all in laymans terms. Very useful post.

 

Re motorway cruising, how high on the revs are we talking do we reckon? I know my current FN2 Civic Type R is a rev monster.

 

It's all hypothetical for me at the moment, need to buy the Supra first but I appreciate people taking the time to discuss.

[Homer]

I dont know much about ratio calculations but ive experienced that by having a tt auto diff the revs are much lower at top end speeds.

 

The TT auto diff reduces the ratio in top end, but also impacts in gear speeds on all gears, it'll be a fair bit slower to accelerate in the lower gears and will result in torque drop in the lower ratios. It's a poor compromise to fit a TT auto diff to a w58 and TT engine.

 

Well as most people will know me and BIGNUM do alot of trackdays - driftdays and i have been giving my W58 box some stick with drifting around islands with 285 - 35 - 18 R888's on the back so alot of grip.

Clutch is a 6 paddle race series from paul (wifbits) and lightweight flywheel, but still box seems as good as the day i fitted the 1JZ.

Car is fully stripped so i can hear all noise's from it and sounds good, i do change the oil every 6 months.

My N/A diff still has 1 mount and is a A01B so is a slipper, i dont get wheel hop as some people do.

As for motorway speeds HOMER is right at 90 its revving at 3 thou but is great for ripping off as your always on boost lol.

Ive had a V160 and hated it, always changing gears and was like a tractor to change gear, also if i blew that was talking £2000 to replace.

If i was going to do another 1jz personally id go for the R154 from a soarer as it fits right in but they are very very rare.

So all in all if you have a decent W58 then 380bhp from my experiance wouldnt be a problem.

Since fitting my 1jz I have just installed some CT12A Turbo Technics HYBRIDS that boost up alot more agressive and come in with a kick at 1.2 BUT im yet to have it rolling roaded as my injectors are 100% but will be fitting some 440cc in soon and maybe try 1.4 lol really give it all a good testing.

 

That's all well and true J-Num, but the the 1JZ is putting out a fair bit less torque in the mid range than the 2JZ. It's the torque build that kills the w58 boxes and in that context the 1JZ will be a lot easier on the box than a 2JZ GTE. But as you are not exactly cautious on cars if it's lasting well for you it's a good sign

 

Personally I'll still push ahead with the TT on NA drivetrain conversion but with the expecation that it will break.

[marbleapple]

I dont know much about ratio calculations but ive experienced that by having a tt auto diff the revs are much lower at top end speeds.

 

Way beyond my technical expertise here but do you have an auto N/A diff in a manual N/A with a TT engine? If so, why?

 

Oh and is the J1Z the soarer engine and the J2Z the supra?

Edited October 31, 2010 by marbleapple (see edit history)

[Homer]

Re motorway cruising, how high on the revs are we talking do we reckon? I know my current FN2 Civic Type R is a rev monster.

 

I always take 100mph as a good guideline as to where you are in terms of fuel economy and noise.

 

With the w58 in 5th gear, 100mph is 4300rpm

With the V161 and TT diff in 6th gear 100mph is 3590rpm

With the V160 and TT diff in 6th gear 100mph is 3480rpm

 

That's a very big difference if you spend any time on the motorway.

[marbleapple]

I always take 100mph as a good guideline as to where you are in terms of fuel economy and noise.

 

With the w58 in 5th gear, 100mph is 4300rpm

With the V161 and TT diff in 6th gear 100mph is 3600rpm

With the V160 and TT diff in 6th gear 100mph is 3480rpm

 

That's a very big difference if you spend any time on the motorway.

 

Thanks

 

4300 sounds less than my Type R from memory. Surprised at how low a standard TT revs at

 

From what everyone has said I am surprised there are so few 5 speed TTs about. Ok you risk losing your gear box if you drive like an idiot but you can buy a whole N/A for a Gettag box.

 

Is the general consensus go for a J1Z or a J2Z or is it just a matter of might as well get a J1Z because it's cheaper?

 

Edit: sorry, just understood Darryl's post. J1Z keeps the torque and so is more likely to blow the W58.

 

Learning a lot tonight

Edited October 31, 2010 by marbleapple (see edit history)

[Homer]

Edit - Just to clarify, the 1JZ is LESS likely to cause issue with the w58 as it's a less torquey and a smoother motor than the 2JZ

 

The 1JZ conversion makes a lot of sense if you don't mind insurance issues and don't plan for easily accessible performance upgrades.

 

If you want to take things further (i.e. more than 500-550bhp) it could become an extremely expensive exercise as you'd need to replace the block, box, drivetrain and pretty much everything else you'd have done in the first place.

 

As always I'd recommend you set your ideal power goals, add a 30-50% bhp to that and only then see which option best suits

[marcAB10]

i've been running my NA-TT on the 5speed box (mine is a SZ-R with lsd and abs) for 2 years now at 340bhp (dyno'd) with an uprated clutch with zero hassle what so ever, and many have been in my car and agree the acceleration really does feel faster (compared to a TT 6sp) monsween is running a TT6 and will agree.

 

My personal thoughts are, if the 5speed can run BPU fine then if your going single your looking at 10k+ anyway, so i doubt an extra 2k for the 6speed will be difficult considering the money your going to spend.

 

I will certainly agree with homer on the motorway driving thing though, out of all of the scottish people who drove down to suprapod there were TT6, singles, NA auto's etc and me NA-TT 5sp....... I spent the most on fuel out of everyone (not too much more though) but that tells you something, it's the sitting at higher revs that does it.

 

basically though, if your happy with stock-bpu power, then the 5speed box considering the price is a damn good call. (as long as you don't comute on motorways daily lol)

[shaft]

my bpu'd tt is running a w58 box. on its 3rd now in 10k miles. really is the way i drive it in fairness.

 

if your not an agressive driver go for a 5 speed, however, if your goin to use the full power of the engine, i can assure you, the box will strip itself in no time. ive 2 here in complete sh1t.

 

also must ad ive an rps max street 6 puk paddle. not impressed, very harsh and welded itself to the flywheel on a few ocasions.

 

just my experience...