adi2009 Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I plan to get a BL61 turbo kit on my J-spec TT but is it possible to run these on the SAFC. will i need any other electronics to control the timing etc... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I use a safc and itc with my powerhouse racing t61. Its ok, but if i were to do it again i would go e-manage. Especially for the 3500~4000 rpm safr (stupid air fuel ratios!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlam Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Yep Go Emanage if you want to control things better...or something better Fcon. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi2009 Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 So if i go with the E-manage i wouldnt need any other electronics to run it right (ie ITC). Also how hard is the e-manage to tune for someone new to it? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 If I were (and might) start again with engine management, I would probably buy e-manage and a proven base map from someone using a similar setup, ie same fueling/cams/turbo. This would still need fine tuning. ITC would not be required as the E-manage can adjust timing also. MOST important thing is a good wideband afr display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 In my opinion AEM, FCON Pro or other proper standalone ECU is absolute minimum when removing the sequential system. It then needs professionally mapping. Do not underestimate the time and money to get things working correctly and reliably. Never expect it to be as good as a stock map unless you throw a HUGE amount of time and money at the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Chris, thats fine if you have an unlimited budget! For most of us, small singles can produce good results with the signal fudgers and are simple enough to self map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Emanage or AEM IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hornet Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I always thought AEM is quite hard and fiddley to setup ?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Converting a twin sequential turbo map into a single turbo map requires more than signal fudgers or even, IMO, an e-manage. If your budget is limited I quite understand, but the engine doesn't! Any proper standalone ecu is hard and fiddly to set up and, again, IMO, the preserve of the dedicated professional engine mapper. Again, IMO, the Supra TT is not a suitable car to learn mapping on, it's always best to learn on an N/A car, preferably one where the engine biting the bullet won't cause you much grief. I can sell and fit single turbo kits as easily as anyone, but unless the customer wants it doing with a standalone ECU and proper dyno time I never get involved. So I have no axe to grind with any vendor or end user of budget set ups, I am just giving advice as to how *I* see this, and stating why I don't offer a budget kit without a "proper" ecu to run it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Listen to the man...he talks mucho sense... If you cant afford to do it right - then just dont do it...too many people have learned the hard way by trying to cut corners and ended up unhappy and diillusioned And some just cant bring themselves to admit it....!!! I think Ian is the only one who is succesfully programmed the E-manage to run with a single (?) - and with a lot of work - and he knows how to do it! Alex - you still have problems with cold start? The F-Con route is now about £1500/1600 plus mapping once you have your system in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I think AEM is prob the best route for singles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Seems to have moved up a notch certainly m8 - about £2000 to have installed and running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 My main issue with an AEM would be the lack of support in this country. For someone like me (a complete technical numpty) it would be a big concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I think Ian is the only one who is succesfully programmed the E-manage to run with a single (?) - and with a lot of work - and he knows how to do it! Alex - you still have problems with cold start? My issue is NOT related to the eManage and it's NOT the cold start. The eManage is doing a superb job within it's own limitations (ie being a piggyback) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Oh OK - I was under the impression that after fitting your E-manage you had problems that were not there when you had stock twins on the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 did'nt dude get some impresive power figures and more importantly times out of just an SAFC and an ITC, i think most people would agree that a stand alone is best but not everyone has 2k to blow on an pukka ecu and its mapping, lets be realistic if you want 1000 hp you HAVE to go to a standalone but at the modest power levels (450-500 hp) a T61 will give its complete overkill and SAFC, ITC's, E-manage and the like will do a job for a more modest outlay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Converting a twin sequential turbo map into a single turbo map requires more than signal fudgers or even, IMO, an e-manage. If your budget is limited I quite understand, but the engine doesn't! What I cant understand is that people are happy to outlay all this money for single kits and fuelling and then 'skimp' on the part that will make it all work properly! Dude got some great figures - he also spent hour after hour on his car putting it together and back together after the bits fried / needed improving etc - he then went AEM and got more out of a smaller turbo (his words) then all his other stuff did from the larger one. Dude is a mechanic and imagine how an average punter would have to spend on getting the engine back together again if it goes wrong! Even an E-manage will cost you £1000+ to map - so after all this investment why not just spend that little bit extra to make it safer? Just my 2.5 drachma... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 What I cant understand is that people are happy to outlay all this money for single kits and fuelling and then 'skimp' on the part that will make it all work properly! Dude got some great figures - he also spent hour after hour on his car putting it together and back together after the bits fried / needed improving etc - he then went AEM and got more out of a smaller turbo (his words) then all his other stuff did from the larger one. Dude is a mechanic and imagine how an average punter would have to spend on getting the engine back together again if it goes wrong! Even an E-manage will cost you £1000+ to map - so after all this investment why not just spend that little bit extra to make it safer? Just my 2.5 drachma... totally accept all that paul i have a T61 and am using a SAFC and ITC to controll it with 550's, its getting set up shortly by a reputable tuner off this board, the reason i chose this "old school" route was because i have not read much positve on this board (do a search) on ecu's and e-manages and want to keep it simple, i realise i would make more power from a well set up e-manage (is there such a thing yet ?) but how much more power, 10 horse WOW, would the meagre power gain at my state of tune warrant it, and as for "do it right or not at all" comes across a bit elitist, like the guys who buy all there bits seperate, from the states or on the cheap have no right to,we dont all have pots of money fella, but love our supes probably more than the rich kids with "loadsamoney" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Your authority! BTW anyone take my safc/itc in p/x for a motec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 (and map it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 It's not meant to sound elitist - I had really discounted the AFC and ITC set up as my understanding is that doesn't have enough tuning points required for the transition phase (according to others on the board) Good luck with this and hope it goes well - please let's have a look at the dyno charts after for interest - I understand others have had fuelling issues after or were unable to take it up to full WOT or a reasonable boost But even this will cost - what..? £1000 to get done and tuned? So the difference between that and an F-Con for instance is not that huge when you consider what you will have paid to go single already...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 wow paul i think i made it clear pots of money aint my thing £1000 for an SAFC II and an ITC ! check out e-bay, £200 for the pair and say another £250 to set it up, sure i'll put up the dino figures and i hope someone will put up there figures who has the same spec as me but with a standalone and we can see if the extra £1500 was worth it, i'me not anti anything that gets performance the hard reallity for me is........money, so i have to "make do on the cheap" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Even an E-manage will cost you £1000+ to map - so after all this investment why not just spend that little bit extra to make it safer? I'm obviously not charging enough Right, my go - I like the E-Manage, it's got the gumption to be able to map a big single around the stock sequential thing. It is, however, a nightmare to sort out the *structure* of the map - the fuelling varies a suprising amount around 3000 to 4100rpm depending on rpm point, throttle position and gear/load/boost pressure. This has taken me a LOT of time and work to sort out with many iterative steps, and even now I'm still debugging small load sites, say 80% throttle in 4th at 3900rpm or 35% throttle in 6th at 3300rpm... however this structure is very portable across non-vvti supras and has proven to be a good base map a few times now Thing is, it has a tendency round this 3000-4100rpm area to run horribly lean (we are talking AFRs of around 17:1) *if* you map this range with the same numbers as the rest of the rev range. The varying boost pressures you get for the same RPM with the same throttle opening is mapped around not only by pulling less air, but also using the additional injector map to fatten it up at certain boost pressures, something you simply cannot do with an AFC. The AFC doesn't even have the resolution to do anywhere near approaching a decent airflow map, and that's only half the story. The ITC is also seriously limited, the EM can adjust ignition timing according to 16 RPM sites and 16 boost pressure sites, so no off-boost slothlike performance just because you've dialled in a blanket -10deg with an ITC, in order to cover your maximum boost... With an AFC you have to either run parts of the map dangerously lean, or so rich it misfires. People seem to think choosing an E-Manage over an AFC is just a case of getting a weeny bit extra power out of it, well, it's not, it's a case of getting decent AFRs at any boost pressure at any point in the rev range, so you can drive the car without stumbling, misfires, or the pistons melting. I've 98% achieved that now and I know I can do the last 2% as I find them and datalog them. And all the bugs are too-rich ones rather than too-lean ones Anyway, I'm happy with it because I can map it, I've taught myself from the ground up as I had no other option. I don't really care if anyone else thinks it's great or not, it's good enough for what I want, it reports bloody good AFRs so it's definitely doing the job properly, and if you know me you'll know I don't put up with crap bits of kit I'll get some show-off datalog graphs this weekend hopefully No comment on the AEM stuff, if you can map it it's gonna be better, but that's where you are talking a 10hp difference As CW says, a road turbo car is not something he'd want to map at all and certainly not something to start on - adjusting the factory ECU means at least you are starting with something written by someone who actually knew what they were doing -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 wow paul i think i made it clear pots of money aint my thing £1000 for an SAFC II and an ITC ! check out e-bay, £200 for the pair and say another £250 to set it up, sure i'll put up the dino figures and i hope someone will put up there figures who has the same spec as me but with a standalone and we can see if the extra £1500 was worth it, i'me not anti anything that gets performance the hard reallity for me is........money, so i have to "make do on the cheap" lol Oh, and wide open throttle is about the only thing the AFC combo can map on a single turbo It's not overly affected by the transition point. Get some AFR graphs of an AFC controlling a single turbo when you are at say 30% throttle in 6th, going through say 2000 to 4500 rpm. I'd like to see them -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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