What BHP on Hybrids

[heckler]

i belive transmission loss's are 15-20%

 

I personally (now) would go for the single... hybrids rated at 500bhp is gona have them pushed to there limit, whereas on a single no where near there limit...

 

Roll On July.....

[Dragonball]

think Richie S mate almost 500bhp on ENVY stage 3 hybrids.... i think!

 

Sorry but I cannot see it m8 - never get there without the EGT's going through the stratosphere

 

26-28 psi - nearly 2 bar?! is that an Increase of 350???

 

Not an increase of 350 - if the stock is approx 280 - than these give you an additional 70 etc. I personally would not run them at anywhere near this as the EGT increases I suspect will be too great. So we come back to the 1.4 and approx 50hp increase

 

So if you are making 350 HP on anyones Dyno - add another 50 achieved to that etc

 

Unless you have a real reason to stay hybrid (and there are some- cost / insurance etc etc) them go single all day long - but be prepared to spend A LOT of money over stock

[Suprachargedtt]

Whatever you do make sure you go to the right people, when my stock turbos went i wanted big single and was avised for a everyday drive it would be c**p and hybrids were the way! (they also said 600bhp was achieveable!!!)

 

I didnt know any better at the time and went this route, after paying way over the top i now wish i had gone single. The hybrids are good but for bigger power then single is the best way

[Guest Terry S]

Sorry but I cannot see it m8 - never get there without the EGT's going through the stratosphere

 

26-28 psi - nearly 2 bar?! is that an Increase of 350???

 

:

 

Agreed about the EGT's the car would det it's nuts off. I made 512 on a set of hybrids on the PTS rollers ( not going to get into the dyno figure arguments, but PTS read MUCH lower than some others). That was the biggest wheels you could get in there, HKS Cams, 3" DP/MP Fuel system, LW flywheel, LW pulleys, 1.6bar on race fuel.

 

Now believe me that set up cost a lot of money ( it was my 3rd set of hybrids, each time going bigger).

 

Just because the turbo' can handle 1.7 bar, doesnt mean the engine can. Hybrids generate massive amounts of heat compared to a single, which in turn raises the charge temp, and therefore lowers the detenation threshold.

 

Coupled to the fact hybrids still use a very small internal waste gate where the singles use externals, They will still suffer boost spikes.

 

HTH

[fisherjohn]

I am running PHR Stage 2 with 720 cc inj and aem ems

467 bhp at the rear end.

My opinion after having stock twins, stage 3 hybrids is go the

single route.

There are so many vacuum tubes and vsvalves to go wrong at any

time and a pig to always find.

The single cleans up the engine bay and is far easier to work on and pin

point problems.

The PHR Stage 2 spools at 3,400 rpm and pulls well and i am only running

1.3 bar boost pressure max, with more if i want it.

Car is an auto and if driven sensibly will not smash the gearbox.

But if you are into fast getaways you might need to add on the cost of a

BL rebuilt auto tranny.

Just my tuppence worth

[Ian C]

Don't get hung up on dyno figures either. Just because your stockers dyno at 450bhp estimated flywheel doesn't mean you've got it. From a roll-on my hybrids would murder any BPU stocker, it deffo had more power. You *will* feel it as long as you don't get a dog of a hybrid (or stockers put back on and told you now have hybrids....) A single turbo will have more power than them though, and you'll feel that as well

 

Stock = 320bhp, BPU takes that to about 370 to 400 depending on supporting mods, and hybrids seem to vary wildly from no additional effect to about 470bhp, maybe a bit more. There is a lot of 'interesting' figures bandied about regarding hybrids. Stages first - sifferent stages seems bizarre because you are going from 400 to a max of 470, so does that mean stage 1 gives you 420, stage 2 445, stage 3 470? Who'd bother with all the expense of fitting the stage 1s?! Like there is going to be any noticeable difference in lag between them. I think you can take any "stage" number and chuck it in the bin, it's a marketing tool. You'd really need to know the turbo specs or someone else who's got them already...

 

And the boost pressures - people say 1.7bar this, 2 bar that, jesus christ you wouldn't run that on a single, 1.4bar max, anything over that and the massive restrictions the stock setup has in the exhaust system really start to tell. Increased EGTs, huge backpressure, overspeeding of the turbos, and they leave their efficiency island and just start heating the air so much it counteracts the additional boost pressure and actually loses the engine power. If the engine hasn't melted a piston by now.

 

All that may seem a real downer on the hybrid setup but I did really like mine. Yeah, it's the top end of what the stock setup can do, but if that's all you want it's convenient from a fitting and insurance point of view. And you still get the 1st turbo low down, so it's great for town driving - if that's most of your journey they would be ideal.

 

-Ian

[Guest Terry S]

All that may seem a real downer on the hybrid setup but I did really like mine. Yeah, it's the top end of what the stock setup can do, but if that's all you want it's convenient from a fitting and insurance point of view. And you still get the 1st turbo low down, so it's great for town driving - if that's most of your journey they would be ideal.

 

-Ian

 

But we have now proved that we can get a single to out spool stockers

 

Simplicity is a massive factor to me. A single install is so much easier to maintain and neater.

[Alex]

A single looks better...end of argument lol

 

I've got a T61 Budget as you know. It cost me £100 to insure it (I'm 25). It spools from about 1400rpm (~.6bar at ~3000rpm) and full boost way before 4000rpm. I need to roll on test it against a stocker to see how the spool characteristics affect it down low. But once it's on song there is no contest I'm running wastegate boost only so far and peak at 1.04bar but that's already damned quick! Can't wait to add the extra .4bar!

 

Personally I think hybrids are a fine choice, but if I had to choose again I'd go single. The noise (external wastegate + less noise restricted exhaust), the linear power delivery (no sudden torque spikes to unsettle the chassis). It DOES look cooler. It does allow you to run silly exhausts which would just see the hybrids become uncontrolled. It doesn't run massive EGT's and it's not ragging your engine to the edge of reliability as you don't have to run the boost so damn high.

[Ian C]

But we have now proved that we can get a single to out spool stockers

 

Simplicity is a massive factor to me. A single install is so much easier to maintain and neater.

 

I'm talking about the 1500rpm prod-of-accelerator type stuff - the dinky stocker will always outspool anything we bolt on at those rpms Of course, sequential twins have an artificial lag of 4000rpm anyway - I was worried about having to change down two gears to get any power when cruising in 6th if I went single, how I laugh at that concern now as I get 1.2bar boost at 3500rpm in 6th and power past everything

 

I agree that with a single, the engine bay gets neater, the plumbing is WAY simpler, the noise is better, and there are less problems associated with wiring, hoses, EGTs, charge temps etc etc so it looks like hybrids are really taking a kicking here, which is a shame. Perhaps they were more viable when single turbo kits were mondo expensive a couple of years back, injectors and ECU choices were more limited and more £s... Such is the march of progress

 

-Ian

[Kopite]

i know what you mean mate, was just going off his sig mate. granted there's a few extra toys on there too

 

"MINES ECU,HKS Hiper Muffler,CW de-cat,BLITZ id III,SARD R2D2 bov,TRL fcd,APEXI SA- FC II,Power Enterprize 650cc injectors,WARLBRO pump,FSE,APEXI induction,HKS 256 in/out 264 cams + gears,BLITZ LM intercooler,HKS trac removal kit,ENVY Stage 3 hybrids ,RPS street max clutch,RPS fly wheel,DENSO IK24's ,TRD suspension,19" Racing Hart CX's,UK brakes,Project MU pads,Goodridge brake lines

 

473.6 rwhp @ 6032RPM-Thor Racing

1/4 mile [email protected] ,60ft 2.426 with 1 bar "

 

EDIT: rwhp could be a typo, will have to ask him

 

 

Sorry but I cannot see it m8 - never get there without the EGT's going through the stratosphere

 

26-28 psi - nearly 2 bar?! is that an Increase of 350???

 

Not an increase of 350 - if the stock is approx 280 - than these give you an additional 70 etc. I personally would not run them at anywhere near this as the EGT increases I suspect will be too great. So we come back to the 1.4 and approx 50hp increase

 

So if you are making 350 HP on anyones Dyno - add another 50 achieved to that etc

 

Unless you have a real reason to stay hybrid (and there are some- cost / insurance etc etc) them go single all day long - but be prepared to spend A LOT of money over stock

[Guest Terry S]

I'm talking about the 1500rpm prod-of-accelerator type stuff - the dinky stocker will always outspool anything we bolt on at those rpms Of course, sequential twins have an artificial lag of 4000rpm anyway - I was worried about having to change down two gears to get any power when cruising in 6th if I went single, how I laugh at that concern now as I get 1.2bar boost at 3500rpm in 6th and power past everything

-Ian

 

I have two datalogs, both VVTi, one stockers & one my DBB. There isnt a single cell where the DBB isn't making boost that the stockers are...

[Ian C]

Meh

[caliAl]

Sorry for asking this stupid question but what would I need to purchase and how much would it all cost to run a budget turbo kit if I owned a completely stock J-spec?

 

Cheers

[Guest Terry S]

You would just need the £1800 kit as a base. You would need to run restricted boost if you wanted to run the 440cc stock injectors

 

Please feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions

[Clarkey]

Sorry for asking this stupid question but what would I need to purchase and how much would it all cost to run a budget turbo kit if I owned a completely stock J-spec?

Cheers

 

To take advantage of the £1800 spent on a BL ... my guess would be:

 

650cc high-impedence injectors (£90 a piece ?)

SAFC (£200 ?)

FMIC (£800 ?)

Walbro (Would you need 2 Fuel Pumps ?)

 

That's over £3K's worth of kit there already (including the Budget Kit)

[Guest Terry S]

To take advantage of the £1800 spent on a BL ... my guess would be:

 

650cc high-impedence injectors (£90 a piece ?)

SAFC (£200 ?)

FMIC (£800 ?)

Walbro (Would you need 2 Fuel Pumps ?)

 

That's about £3K's worth of kit there already (including the Budget Kit)

Well I assume we are weighing the single against decent hybrids.

 

If the hybrids are any good they would require larger injectos too. FMIC not a necessity as the T61 with the budget kit is far more efficient than hybrids, in fact you could almost put that as a saving, as hybrids would need a fmic more.

 

SAFC, yes if going with larger injectors ( same with hybrids)

 

Walbro, yeah same with hybrids, 1 walbro will do the job.

 

HTH

[Alex]

Single Walbro suffices!

2 Row FMIC is man enough 600x300x76mm

[cashpoint]

2 Row FMIC is man enough 600x300x76mm

 

Off topic a bit but how do you tell the difference between a 2 row, 3 row or 4row FMIC ? What does it mean?

[Guest Terry S]

It's the No. of rows in the core ( depth wise)

[caliAl]

To take advantage of the £1800 spent on a BL ... my guess would be:

 

650cc high-impedence injectors (£90 a piece ?)

SAFC (£200 ?)

FMIC (£800 ?)

Walbro (Would you need 2 Fuel Pumps ?)

 

That's over £3K's worth of kit there already (including the Budget Kit)

 

Does anyone know how much all this would cost to fit including budget kit?

[Clarkey]

Also, for a stock Supe .. you'd need some way increasing the stock 1Bar fuel-cut limit too.

 

That would be ...

 

E-Manage - £500 at a guess ??.. makes the SAFC redundant.

Or TRL VFCC .. £90 + SAFC

[Alex]

eManage with it's built in FCD would be a better bet. and they are less than £350 delivered from the States with all the optional extras you need.

You could get it mapped for just £300...

[Alex]

I've got a T61 Budget as you know. It cost me £100 to insure it (I'm 25). It spools from about 1400rpm (~.6bar at ~3000rpm) and full boost way before 4000rpm.

 

I'd just like to edit what I wrote here...it's actually 0.9bar at 3057rpm with the first cat still in place! (3" Decat's go in on Friday!) As of Friday afternoon I'll be looking for .9bar below 3000rpm

 

Now show me some hybrids that can keep up with the midrange (which is the bit you use most in driving) of my BL Budget...

[attilauk]

bugger me, i didn't realise that the budget single setup came online that early!

 

i've got to get saving

[Alex]

I want to get it dyno'd now....but mapping is slow in this weather (and I'm not paying for rolling road time)

 

Once I get the EBC hooked up too we'll have even more fun