alxns

@mawby Also, about club memberships, I paid last week so it did not register I think. @Tyson is onto it. Thanks

Well done everyone involved! Cheers Alex

Frog eater here!

Salut ! Thanks Luxluc, it was a lucky one

If anyone is interested I have made a Google Sheet file with links and all of my research. I cleaned it up but it's still missing some links though. I'd be my pleasure to share, just drop me a PM.

Thanks Dunk, will do

Oh I did contact Pete but he isn't here often it seems!

May I become a club member again? I've found my old account, I used to be alxns7. If a red mod could contact me about enabling avatar and signature it would be perfect! Thanks Thanks Pudsey! Cheers from France

Let us know how it feels! My car is still "on hold" for maintenance at the moment

Hi Samurai There's a "stop" on the throttle body and the throttle doesn't close properly. The IAC valve (idle stepping motor) will not take it into account since the ECU thinks YOU are opening the throttle. It sorted my high idle issues but that was ages ago. I think the TSRM has the proper adjustment procedure. In short, it's probably a mechanical issue rather than an electronic one.

I think so Simo. I'm just going to put in my trans the 2012 batch of D21065 I got for free from Misteroil for now. The peugeot accessories website won't let me order for some reason, probably a bug on their side. Asking Peugeot dealers is a always an interesting conversation. -Hiya, I'd like to order some D21065 ATF please -What car do you have sir I'll let you imagine the rest of the discussion Problem is, 1L bottles are only available to order from the website apparently.

After contacting smart, mercedes, and peugeot here in France, it would seem that only peugeot is able to deliver fresh batches (product code is 9730AC used on type MB3 / 4HP14 / 4HP18 trans and "all power steering before CITROËN C5 et PEUGEOT 307 w/o GEP"). Batch number and MFG date should always be stamped bottom of the cans. If it's not it has simply faded away over time. I could not contact Lubweb directly, Racinglubes told me their 1L-cans batch is from 2013, and the batch I got from Misteroil was from 2012 (which they refunded)

Oh so even in the UK! Car is so rare here in France that yesterday I had someone told me hey nice car! is it a corvette? Close enough!

That multi-vehicle Aisin JWS3309 ATF is a JWS3309/Toyota T-IV spec ATF. It's recommended for the other listed applications, not necessarily approved. It also says Dexron IIE, IIIF/G/H. Same deal for the febi ATF. Over on the Mercedes 'MB BeVo' pages they specifically say I'm sorry I know I'm coming a little strong on this, but I think the goal is to get what's best, and that is the fully tested and approved gear oil back in the 90s. We're lucky to have just that in Europe. If anyone is on supraforums.com and can maybe get the guys who did the V160 fluid challenge to do an updated analysis with some fresh Japanese V160 gear oil, Peugeot ATF D21065, Mercedes Smart 450/452 gear oil, Nissan special gear oil, and Mobil ATF D21065. With the data they could then identify a similar ATF distributed over there. And see whether it proves me wrong.

Just checked, you can only choose France Belgium or Luxembourg from the website. I have also asked concerning MFG dates of the batches they stock, I'll let you guys know what they say.

I fully understand Tim here and I'll try to explain, hopefully this will help others too. Contacting Toyota France on my end has not proven to be of much use... But less than 80 Supras have been sold here. Maybe the whole Gazoo heritage stuff will move things a bit. About two weeks ago I started ordering fluids for the car, as usual I tried sticking to what the manuals say. In 2017 I couldn't find any D21065 but thought I'd try ATF 220, as it is recommended by Mobil for Dexron IID applications. Just for peace of mind I contacted Mobil to ask whether it'd be fine to use either ATF220 or ATF3309 for my transmission, that requires discontinued D-21065. I mentioned that it now had the ATF220 fluid which seemed to work nicely. To my surprise their first response was just telling me Hello Sir, D21065 is available in France, here are the codes, you can just order from Mobil resellers 1L, 20L or 208L. So I thought wait a minute... I'm pretty sure I couldn't find any 3 years ago, and now all of a sudden I can order 55 US GAL drums? So after exchanging a little more with the Mobil Help Desk Engineer, basically she told me that D-21065 is for specific PSA applications, ATF220 and ATF D-21065 are not interchangeable, ATF3309 is for T-IV applications, and they recommend sticking to the manual recommendations. No surprise here, she was just following what is written on each product data sheet. Apparently PSA have started manufacturing a new transmission last year, maybe 2018, I'm not sure. I had experience in industrial maintenance so I thought I'd do some digging. Didn't care much about ATFs before, but it is very interesting. Just going through french forums and asking a few friends, it turns out, PSA have been using ESSO ATF D-21065 for ages in their transmissions. Just an example: a 1986 Peugeot 505 owner's manual specifically states that ESSO ATF Dexron II D21065 along with Shell Dexron II D20137 are the approved fluids for the auto trans. Those are GM Dexron IID license numbers, but does it mean you may use any Dexron IID ATF in that car? Not necessarily. PSA have been providing their own badged ATF D-21065 containers. They don't use a special name like ZF Lifeguard, V160 Gear Oil, BNR34 Special, BMW MTF etc. Nowadays it's "Huile ATF D 21065 boite auto", so kudos to them. At least it saves us the guesswork, unlike for some of the Getrag and ZF transmissions. Bear in mind that usually, trans fluids are designed to be for life, without any change. Just inspecting the oil level and condition is required. I think even the Supra maintenance schedule don't require any V160 Oil change (that's for "normal operation" mind you. But what is Supra normal operation these days ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) BMWs with the Getrag 420G 6MT have that yellow sticker stating "MTF-LT-1, LIFE TIME OIL, DO NOT CHANGE" or something, if I'm not mistaken. According to the manufacturers, you would need the Fluid just for overhauls, and "special conditions" driving (our case) As to why I was talking about safety data sheets... Tim is absolutely right, comparing colours is pointless. However those sheets are 10-page long, there's a lot, mainly density, flash point, viscosities are interesting for fluids. Those are not always the actual product specifications BTW, merely a guidance for identifying the product in situations such as spillage, person ingestion, environmental hazards etc. Cross check data and you can pretty much identify what is what. V160 Gear Oil is 100% ATF D-21065, a then Dexron IID-licensed ATF. As to where it is manufactured... The japanese V160 Gear Oil safety data sheet supplier is EMG Marketing (now EMG Lubricants) in Tokyo. Not necessarily the manufacturer though. Why is it referred to as "Castle Gear Oil"? Toyota Castle "Kyassuru" キャッスル is Toyota's brand of genuine oils in Japan. So.. yeah, a lot of transmissions use ATF D21065 as the approved fluid, or for factory filling. Most are manual, or automated manual, BTW. PSA transmissions, Jaguar S-Type Getrag 221 5MT, early Smart 450/452 Getrag 431 6AMT, Supra Getrag 233 6MT, R34 GTR Getrag 233 6MT, probably many others, it's hard to track down because they don't always disclose what they use exactly, even in manuals. Just check the owner's manuals or repair manuals for those cars, see what it says exactly. I couldn't find all of them. For our Getrag 233s: 1993 French Supra Owner's manual: "BOITE DE VITESSES MANUELLE: TYPE D'HUILE: ESSO ATF DEXRON D-21065, TOYOTA GEAR OIL V160 ou un équivalent". Pretty sure every 1993 Supra owner's manual has the same mention. They got rid of the "...or equivalent" in future publications. 1997 USDM Supra Repair Manual, publication RM502U: Oil type: TOYOTA GEAR OIL V160 or ESSO ATF DEXRON®D-21065 1999 Nissan R34 Service Manual Supplement I, for the GT-R: "Nissan Mission Oil BNR34 special only" The "only" is pretty explicit. I could not find any data sheet for the KLD40-00004 Nissan part number, but there are pictures that show that it is ESSO ATF D-21065. Not sure the BMW's Getrag 420G uses ATF D21065. If I had to guess, it's Mobil ATF LT 71141. But I lack evidence, I didn't look for the BMW sheets. Chris Wilson posted an oil analysis report in 2006 for the BMW MTF-LT-1 fluid., I'll let you open the Great V160 Challenge pdf. Compare the V160 Gear Oil (ATF D-21065), the Toyota ATF T-IV (ATF 3309), the BMW MTF-LT-1 from CW's analysis, and check viscosities, the Boron (Friction modifier) and Phosphore (Extreme Pressure additive) content. Additionally, you can check densities in the data sheets. Make your own opinion. Toyota replaced the V160 Gear Oil/ATF D-21065 with ATF Type T-IV in Europe. If I had to guess, it's just because of logistics. I won't believe that Type T-IV -Toyota's multi-vehicle ATF- is an acceptable replacement unless there is a Toyota Tech Bulletin specifically addressing this. Of the many posts over on Supraforums.com: Apparently it is very good old technology! I think two weeks of overthinking is fair, considering that on supraforums.com there has been a lot of underthinking for 10+ years. Can't hurt, especially given the insane values and that there is no Getrag support anymore. I know I'll stick to fresh PSA D21065, and not order old V160 tins from the US with ridiculous prices, sometimes approaching 100 USD/Litre (29% off!) Back to the topic, here are the current references that I know of so far, available in Europe: Peugeot/Citroën ATF D 21065, code is 9730AC on the french peugeot/citroen accessories websites, might be different in the UK Smart/Mercedes L 20 Gear Oil, code Q0022037V000000000 Mobil ATF D 21065, 1L code 150997, 20L code 150999, 208L code 150997 (at least those are the codes I got from Mobil France) Not sure what Toyota France now gets for V160 gear oil part number 08885-01306. I'll check Now... I ordered 2x1L Mobil ATF D 21065 from a reseller in Belgium. The fluid I got was manufactured in 2012. Very interestingly, on the sticker, only the French paragraph says the following: "Use within 5 years from MFG date" So just beware. I told them it was old and they are sending me a fresh batch, no problem I think I'm gonna pay Peugeot a visit and get myself some fresh 1986 Peugeot 505 ATF for my 1993 Supra V160 manual transmission EDIT: clarity

Most properties I don't know, ideally you would want to do an oil analysis and compare with some fresh D21065 Belgian ale, see what has changed If Toyota can't help you, go to Mercedes/Smart, tell them you'd like some Gear Oil for an old 6-speed Smart, part no Q0022037V000000000. It's the exact same ATF. Or get D21065 from Lubweb on ebay, they're near Calais so I think they will ship to the UK.

Transmax Import is Castrol's universal/multi-vehicle ATF for japanese cars. I wouldn't use it because the range of applications is too large. I think the oil analysis they did was a nice initiative. Seeing the different elements for each product is definitely interesting. But they didn't really go too deep into why the OEM fluid is so good, and what approvals each ATF might have. Too bad they didn't get hold of some D21065. Manufacturing dates should have also been considered because older fluids might have had their properties and composition altered by the time the sample was analyzed.

I think it would be worth discussing with the official Mobil distributors in the UK and Ireland, given the amount of Supra and R34 GTR you guys have. Even Toyota EU or Nissan directly In the mean time you can try Mercedes/Smart. And I'm sure some French or Belgian resellers will ship across the Channel

It is a lot to take in Yes. Basically, the only approved fluid for the Getrag 233 is the Mobil ATF D-21065 (sold as smart 450/452 gear oil, Nissan BNR34 special gear oil, and Toyota V160 gear oil. There's probably a Peugeot/Citroën reference too). When D-21065 was discontinued, Toyota EU replaced the V160 oil part number (old post from 2009) with Mobil ATF3309 (sold as Toyota ATF Type T-IV), but this might have changed.

I don't think it is. MB 235.71 is only for the early smart models 450 (Fortwo) and 452 (Roadster) with Getrag 6-speed 431 AMT transmissions. Those were not sold in north america. But asking MB over there might be worth a shot, stock code for the smart gear oil is Q0022037V000000000-.

OK I should not have written that. Dexron IID is an old, general spec. Stick to D21065 if you can. Let's take a look at the other D21065 approvals from ZF: ZF TE-ML 04D and ZF TE-ML 11B. ZF TE-ML 04 is for marine applications, TE-ML 11 for automotive. Section 11B of TE-ML 11 (the D21065 approval), we see that there's just a few approved products. Section 3 of TE-ML 11, ZF 5HP18 (auto trans used in some BMWs): black plate versions: only 11B-approved products are permitted. Green plate versions: "ATF according to lubricant class 11B are not permitted (exception: ZF LifeguardFluid 5)" and "Warning: use of incorrect lubricant can cause transmission failure". Apparently that transmission uses 10.5 litres of fluid, so it's probably even more critical. So what is ZF LifeguardFluid 5? There's an answer on the bimmer forums: "Up to 2005 we have used the Esso LT 71141 as factory fill fluid and as service fluid (ZF Lifeguardfluid5). From 2006 on we have changed to Pentosin ATF 1. Both fluids are approved for use in the ZF 5HPxx transmissions." Now Pentosin ATF 1 is the Fuchs Titan ATF 1. Not sure what the difference is between LT 71141 and D21065, they're both ZF 11B-approved, but there's obviously something. Mobil doesn't state that LT 71141 is of any "Dexron quality level", but D21065 is a "Dexron IID-quality" product according to them. Which makes sense because D-21065 is a Dexron IID license number. Also, LT 71141 is the only listed ATF for MB-approval 236.11. It's used for ZF 4HP20 and VW AG4 transmissions: MB 231.2 Now... Toyota (I assume together with Getrag) deemed ATF Type T-IV as an acceptable replacement for D21065/V160 Gear Oil for the european market. The Toyota tech bulletins on ATFs state that T-IV is backwards compatible with previous Toyota fluids (albeit some shouldn't be mixed), but not with Dexron II/Dexron III. Dexron-licensed products are not always backwards compatible with previous Dexron spec products, but Dexron III ones are. Now most "Dexron IID" lubricants are just "recommended", or "meet specs", or "are suitable" for Dexron IID applications, according to the fluid manufacturer, but not necessarily licensed by GM. I couldn't find anything saying that D21065 was a Toyota ATF Type T or T-II-approved product in the past. It might have even been the OEM T or T-II fluid. ATF specs can be a nightmare. Motul's own Oil Selector recommend using their Dexron IID or Dexron III ATF for the V160, but I'd never use Dexron III. I have contacted Motul France for clarification. I could find one other ATF with the PSA S71 2102 approval: Total's Fluide/Fluidmatic ATX. The product page states that it is suitable for manual transmissions requiring an ATF. I would consider this as an option, but it does not have the ZF 11B approval. It used to have a MB 236.6 approval, now replaced by MB 236.7, where listed ATFs are of the Dexron II quality level. In the same way, other ATFs described as suitable for manual transmissions are the Castrol Transmax Z, and Aral ATF LD. They both share MB-approval 236.81. I think the Castrol has been mentioned a few times. For the North American market, it's difficult to say. Neither the D21065, Fluide ATX, or Transmax Z are distributed over there, AFAIK. Obviously Toyota ATF T-IV (spec JWS3309, it's rebadged Mobil ATF3309) should be safe, but it's less viscous. Maybe Fuchs Titan ATF 1, Castrol Transmax Import Multi-Vehicle. They can use the V160 1L cans of course, but consider this: how long have these cans been sitting on shelves? ExxonMobil recommend 2, 5 or 10 years shelf life for aviation lubricants, depending on packaging. Eastman Aviation also have shelf life guidelines. It might not be as critical, but I doubt automotive products are any different.

Save the Getrag V160/233 and don't use Royal Purple. They don't have any manufacturer approval, which can be critical for ATFs. They even advise on their own cross reference PDF to always follow the manufacturer's recommendation. When I bought the car in 2014 it had Synchromax. I've always thought that shifting 1>2 made a very uncomfortable sound. Switching to Mobil ATF 220 in 2017 was a huge improvement. But worry no more lads: Toyota Castle Gear Oil V160 aka Mobil ATF D-21065 is now back in mass production in Europe. Since when I'm not sure, but it looks like PSA needs it for factory filling some of their newer transmissions (PSA S71 2102 spec) Toyota.jp has a Safety Data Sheet page, and ExxonMobil have a nice SDS database for each one of their markets. Comparing sheets, you will see that V160 Gear Oil and ATF D-21065 are the exact same product. D-21065 is also the only approved fluid for the early Smart Fortwo and Roadster with Getrag 717.4 transmissions (MB 231.1, MB 235.71). So this whole time, Smart/Mercedes dealers could have provided us with V160 "liquid gold" Gear Oil. I wonder if Toyota EU still replaces the V160 Fluid part number with Type T-IV ATF. Looking at viscosities, I'm not sure it's the best fluid for V160s... But it was probably their best option in Europe when D-21065 was discontinued.

Very optimistic is exactly how I would describe it Dnk I did not see actual curves, detailed specs, and given the condition of the car from when we got it, now that I know a lot more, I do not believe one second it came even close to that

You're right 420rwhp is indeed a bit too much! I've checked some older threads on the french Supra forums and apparently he got it to around 450BHP with 1.1 bar and the APEXI SAFC. He was a dyno/tuning shop owner but did some weird stuff on the car (had a Zener diode to bypass fuel cut for instance)