grahamc Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I dont understand the current hostility towards hybrids to be honest...answer me a question, what was the bread and butter before all these single upgrades come onto the market....hybrids right? Make no mistake about it, most find it hard when traders push there single conversions at people so hard and bad mouth the hybrids its easy to shun them to one side in favour of the single, after all whats going to make them more money in the long run a nice 3-4k single kit or a £1500 set of hybrids.....Hmmm I know which one I would chose to market My take is, if you get a well made set from a respected company and use supporting mods, ie cams, water injection, proper cooling, fuelling etc etc there is no reason why they wont be good?? I personally would'nt worry with a high stall either, the lag I doubt would be no more noticible that a pair of UK turbos The people that have bad mouthed them in this thread, how many of you have first hand experience with them? without fail a single is going to be stronger in all areas for 500bhp + figure as hybrids will get no where near that figure reliably, however for a true 400ish bhp with the sequential system still in place there worth looking into Power figures really don't mean a lot to me. If you wanna talk power let's see your drag terminal speeds - that's the only true indicator to me. RE: supporting mods, who's to say a car still on cermics with those same supporting mods won't be every bit as fast / powerful? That's the argument surrounding them being cost effective, especially considering labour costs. It's cheaper labour wise to fit a single after taking the twins off as there's much less to it than refitting a set of twins, hybrid or otherwise. Cheers, Brian. I must agree that if I did not have the chance to get the hybrids at the price I did, I would not have gone for them. For £1500 I would put the money aside and go for a single conversion. Would like to see my car on the drag, when we orgaising another Supra Pod day?? Needs to be before I destroy my hybrids... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I was mearly commenting on the hostility towards hybrids + Nige might not be a track warrior either, cost wise there is no comparison in my opinion, single will cost you 10k easily over a few years I personally would not believe people that say otherwise, hybrids will put you no where near that figure over the same time period (setup wise), thats providing both cars stay healthy as well. I agree labour to refit the twins is a lot but in the long run a single will always be more that any hybrid setup if its done correctly, ie not cutting corners which is how it should be done every time in my opinion Hybrids will always out do ceramics power wise as you can push them that little bit harder Graham C results show this, obviously a trade off for slightly laggier setup I must admit, I dont really find my setup that laggy... I never drove the car with the standard tubos, but if you are in the area I will take you for a drive. Ask JustGav, just hopefully on the right side of the road this time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I was mearly commenting on the hostility towards hybrids + Nige might not be a track warrior either, cost wise there is no comparison in my opinion, single will cost you 10k easily over a few years I personally would not believe people that say otherwise, hybrids will put you no where near that figure over the same time period (setup wise), thats providing both cars stay healthy as well. I agree labour to refit the twins is a lot but in the long run a single will always be more that any hybrid setup if its done correctly, ie not cutting corners which is how it should be done every time in my opinion Hybrids will always out do ceramics power wise as you can push them that little bit harder Graham C results show this I'm not hostile towards Hybrids Mike, hence me arguing the point RE: Justin's Supra with what is in my eyes a decent set of Hybrids. What I cannot share is your reasoning that a single costs thousands more to do when you've also been talking about all the supporting mods for hybrids. A budget single kit from a known quality source such as Boostlogic or PHR is what £2,000 going by MVP prices. Both this and the hybrids then require larger fuel injectors, possibly FPR, uprated IC, possibly cams, a piggyback or standalone ECU + mapping + labour to fit it all. Tell me where the huuuge extra expense comes in, like for like? As long as you don't go chasing huge power numbers when you go single and stick with a small to medium sized turbo then this route and hybrids are effectively a very similar cost, but the labour on the single should be cheaper. Again I'm not being hostile towards Hybrids, just highlighting they're not cost effective when comparing bang per buck with a sensibly sized single conversion. Cheers, Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Would like to see my car on the drag, when we orgaising another Supra Pod day?? Needs to be before I destroy my hybrids... lol - funny enough that's in discussion in mods section just now! We're currently struggling for venue dates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Sounds about right Brian. If you do the fueling, the fmic, standalone, which is the way it should be done, then I completely agree that bang for buck the single is better. I do however believe that there is a plac for hybrids... Just under the 500 bhp mark is where they sit. If you want decent power without going single, I believe the hybrids are an answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 lol - funny enough that's in discussion in mods section just now! We're currently struggling for venue dates Good to hear!! I missed the last one due to my car not being ready, but I would love to make the next one, especially if RyanG has worked some magic on my car... Should be interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb10supra Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I'm not hostile towards Hybrids Mike, hence me arguing the point RE: Justin's Supra with what is in my eyes a decent set of Hybrids. Ahh ok apologies mate, I may have miss read What I cannot share is your reasoning that a single costs thousands more to do when you've also been talking about all the supporting mods for hybrids. A budget single kit from a known quality source such as Boostlogic or PHR is what £2,000 going by MVP prices. Both this and the hybrids then require larger fuel injectors, possibly FPR, possibly cams, a piggyback or standalone ECU + mapping + labour to fit it all. Tell me where the huuuge extra expense comes in, like for like? As long as you don't go chasing huge power numbers when you go single and stick with a small to medium sized turbo then this route and hybrids are effectively a very similar cost, but the labour on the single should be cheaper. Again I'm not being hostile towards Hybrids, just highlighting they're not cost effective when comparing bang per buck with a sensibly sized single conversion. Cheers, Brian. Bang per buck would not even enter my head if I were to ever go single, hybrids and singles can both use e-manage to run things but if I were to ever go single I wold only use motec, or AEM to sort things, this is where my price for mapping would come in my breakdown would look something like this kit - 2k fuelling 1k not inclusive of flow testing transmission, clutch - 1k IC - 500ish cams - 600 front and rear brakes if not already UK's 1k plugs - 50 oil - 80 oil filter 20 coolant - 50 hose, clips, joiners etc etc - 200 ECU - 1k mapping 1k + shipping and delivery on top this is very rough but my take on price range adn doing it properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 That's still a poor argument Mike. What about IanC's car? It does OK with a piggyback on a medium sized single! The same reasoning stands as to whether to go piggyback or standalone when fitting Hybrids OR a single. Both require larger injectors and fuel mapping, both require timing adjustments. In some cases a single requires less timing adjustment to avoid det than a set of hybrids blowing ever hotter air through a restrictive stock manifold. See my comments on your list in brackets in blue: kit - 2k (similar price for hybirds - Envy Stage 3 are £1,300) fuelling 1k not inclusive of flow testing (same for hybrids if you want to be so elaborate in this area) transmission, clutch - 1k (same for hybrids) IC - 500ish (same for hybrids) cams - 600 (same for hybrids) front and rear brakes if not already UK's 1k (same for hybrids) plugs - 50 (Always £10 in my eyes for a set of coppers, but same for hybrids lol) oil - 80 (same for hybrids) oil filter 20 (same for hybrids) coolant - 50 (same for hybrids) hose, clips, joiners etc etc - 200 (This should be already in the kit, but I accept with any installation some extra hardware may be necessary in this area) ECU - 1k (same for hybrids, can be done with a piggyback for £500) mapping 1k (same for hybrids, piggyback mapping is usually cheaper than for a standalone because you're not starting from square 1) + shipping and delivery on top (same for hybrids) Then installation, as mentioned there should be a labour saving with going single. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Ahh ok apologies mate, I may have miss read Bang per buck would not even enter my head if I were to ever go single, hybrids and singles can both use e-manage to run things but if I were to ever go single I wold only use motec, or AEM to sort things, this is where my price for mapping would come in my breakdown would look something like this kit - 2k fuelling 1k not inclusive of flow testing transmission, clutch - 1k IC - 500ish cams - 600 front and rear brakes if not already UK's 1k plugs - 50 oil - 80 oil filter 20 coolant - 50 hose, clips, joiners etc etc - 200 ECU - 1k mapping 1k + shipping and delivery on top this is very rough but my take on price range adn doing it properly Prices seems about right... but look at the link ecu, very capable, RyanG is very good with them. And does not require all the little additions that the AEM does (cold spark, etc). I do classify the LINK as overkill for my setup, but I would not run it with anything less. You may also need to factor in suspension, geo, and wheels... for better grip and traction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 kit - 2k (similar price for hybirds - Envy Stage 3 are £1,800 I believe?) Just to correct you Brian, ours are £1300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Just to correct you Brian, ours are £1300. Thanks Gaz. Can you shed any light on the labour time to install a single kit vs install another set of twins? Cheers, Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Thanks Gaz. Can you shed any light on the labour time to install a single kit vs install another set of twins? Cheers, Brian. We'd normally charge £800 to do a hybrid swap (inc VAT). A single kit (with nothing else done I must add) would be £600 (inc VAT) Regards, Gaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 OK thanks. What's your take on this argument, given that you offer both paths of upgrade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I was happy with my Hybrids but have nothing to compare them too as they were installed just before I purchased the car. Great spool, pulled strongly all the time and allowed me to up the boost to around 1.25 However, they did fail 12 months after installation, but that was apparently down to user error - not me, the previous owner. As the others have said, I'd be saving up for a single instead of going to 'stronger' twins. Chris Wilson has expressed his views on Hybrids a few times over the year. I believe he on the whole thinks J-spec tubbies are actually more reliable than UK spec/Hybrid variants. Don't quote me on that, but I'm sure he mentioned it before on another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb10supra Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 That's still a poor argument Mike. See my comments on your list in brackets in blue: hybrids 1300 fuelling 200 not inclusive of flow testing (550's will do fine) transmission, clutch - 1k (not needed imo) IC - 500ish (stock SMIC will do if in decent condition) cams - 600 (not needed) front and rear brakes if not already UK's 1k (not as essential imo j-specs will just suffice but is prob a good idea to upgrade) plugs - 50 (Always £10 in my eyes for a set of coppers, but same for hybrids lol) oil - 80 (same for hybrids) oil filter 20 (same for hybrids) coolant - 50 (same for hybrids) hose, clips, joiners etc etc - 200 (This should be already in the kit, but I accept with any installation some extra hardware may be necessary in this area) mapping + ecu 600 ( piggyback will do) + shipping and delivery on top (same for hybrids) While I agree with a few of your comments above I also dissagree with a few as well like I said im not here to start an massive price debate im just sharing my views and how I would go about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Hey, those aren't all my comments in your post above! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb10supra Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Hey, those aren't all my comments in your post above! I took ones out that I didnt think relevant I added the turbos in forgot before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 lol ok - have edited just to make it less confusing for people reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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