dangerous brain Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I'm not exactly 'well below 1.0 bar'. I have got the nack of lifting off to 13.5 psi, which is 0.93bar.. not that much different is it? I think I'll plumb up the MAP (or is it MAF?) sensor tomorrow.. anyone know of any howtos for doing it? Dude its the lifting off that costs you the acceleration. A car on stock boost with foot flat to the floor is gonna outperform a car that is being fed power by a driver trying to keep the car just under fuel cut. Boost drop by lifting off will lose so much acceleration. Put an FCD on and take it back off again after a few days and you'll appreciatte what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Plumbing too difficult? Remember we have a seq. twin turbo.. that audi will have parallel turbos so one intercooler per turbo would be easy on that. Does not matter you have one comon input where they merge into one. Look at the pipe going into your inner wing;) Its only like that cost its a V engine layout. Think about it, its like having 2, 3-cyl turbo charged engines stuck together thats all. A FMIC would be fine for your supe Deffo, theres no point. Whoah actualy think about it fellas. Then there is no point fitting an FMIC then. If you was to take the stock side mount and make and identical mirror image of it you would have 2 side mounts that would have the same if not more surface area than the FMIC and it would work as per Toyota ducting and everything. And the pluss side is that your rad and Aircon rad is clear as it was as stock. It would not be that difficult If you look under you bonnets at where the outlet from the current SMIC is. It would not be hard to carry it on into the passenger inner wing and duplicate what goes on in the driver side as it runs right along the bottom of the rad anyway. Then it would be a very short run to the intake. OK OK you would have to loose the battery and there is no point on a stock car BUT it would be a great set up for the big single boys ect ect . Very efficient cooling and no negatives of the FMIC. Now im talking abot an alternative to FMIC for the big boys not as a replacement for BPU...the cost alone would be a drawback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 If I drive mine at .93bar its a pussycat compared to 1.3bar. Chalk and cheese. 1.3 bar on stock tubbies is asking for trouble. Multiple amounts of dyno runs on various stock tubbies show that much above 1.2 bar starts to have negative effects. My own car produces its best power at 1.15 bar and deteriorates from there rapidly and exponentially. By 1.3 bar my turbo's would be producing so much heat I'd start to melt stuff. 395 at the hubs is no shy amount on stock tubbies and I don't think many can match it so I'm hardly running slack power at 1.15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 1.3 bar on stock tubbies is asking for trouble. Multiple amounts of dyno runs on various stock tubbies show that much above 1.2 bar starts to have negative effects. My own car produces its best power at 1.15 bar and deteriorates from there rapidly and exponentially. By 1.3 bar my turbo's would be producing so much heat I'd start to melt stuff. 395 at the hubs is no shy amount on stock tubbies and I don't think many can match it so I'm hardly running slack power at 1.15 I'm running hybrids @ 1.3bar. But even at 1.2 hes gonna experience a different car to one hes got now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Ok guys well I just dug out the Thor FCD.. after reading about the Warnings regarding the free-fcd on mkiv.com. Gonna fit tomorrow but I'll need to pick up some posh connectors first as I like to do things nicely night all x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I'm not particularly talking about the new rs4, but even so, they're only ~400bhp, so not totally out of a bpu+ Supras league. You assume that yours is making 400bhp, which it isn't. It's closer to 350-360max those days, in the summer it will be less. Don't be fooled by the fancy power figures tossed around, they are 'pub' numbers and treat them as such. I've also got a UKSpec and have had it on the dyno and acceleration tests in various engine setups. You won't get anywhere near 400bhp at 1 bar. Without the FCD you are limited to 1 bar and you said it yourself that you lift the throttle to avoid fuel cut. So you probably limit it even more just when it needs to keep full throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 It will take quite alot to beat an RS4 lol. 400 odd bhp AWD and as much electronics as a Evo. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Whoah actualy think about it fellas. Then there is no point fitting an FMIC then. I meant to a Supra, not on a V engine, I can understand why its on a V engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I meant to a Supra, not on a V engine, I can understand why its on a V engine Yeah twin intercoolers IMO are for twin intake plenum's/throttle bodies/intakes.... Because the air only passes through 1. Using to 2 in series will IMO lead to a pressure loss and not be efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Yeah twin intercoolers IMO are for twin intake plenum's/throttle bodies/intakes.... Because the air only passes through 1. Using to 2 in series will IMO lead to a pressure loss and not be efficient. That really depends on the design of the cores. I think twin side mounts would be an excellent idea for track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 You assume that yours is making 400bhp, which it isn't. It's closer to 350-360max those days, in the summer it will be less. Don't be fooled by the fancy power figures tossed around, they are 'pub' numbers and treat them as such. I've also got a UKSpec and have had it on the dyno and acceleration tests in various engine setups. You won't get anywhere near 400bhp at 1 bar. Without the FCD you are limited to 1 bar and you said it yourself that you lift the throttle to avoid fuel cut. So you probably limit it even more just when it needs to keep full throttle. You talk good sense (and power figures, although you might still be a little optimistic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 You can't have differential air flow on the 2 turbos, the whole set up relies on both turbso having the SAME air flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 It will take quite alot to beat an RS4 lol. 400 odd bhp AWD and as much electronics as a Evo. Good luck! The new RS4's were closer to 420bhp. Older models 380, but with a bag of torque too. You'd need to be running around 18psi to beat one of these convincingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 I know 400bhp would be an unreasonable expectation for my car, and I have always worked by a rough rule of thumb that for every PSI over stock, I am gaining ~10bhp, so my estimations are that on a good day I am making 370 - 380. Of course, I have not been making this power when I've needed it most against the Audis, but I was kind of hoping there might be a weight or drivetrain advantage. Unfortunately it looks like the new RS4 at least is 1650kgs, which is about the same as the Supra I think. Fortunately the RS4 loses out with its quattro system robbing power. Ah fack it. What am I to do. How much does a top set of Hybrids cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letmeshowyou Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Gonna fit tomorrow but I'll need to pick up some posh connectors first as I like to do things nicely nicely wouldnt involve connectors Get that soldering iron out and book a session with a masseuse for when you've done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 You talk good sense (and power figures, although you might still be a little optimistic) Optimistic, yes, I know I am, but it's intentional. Sometimes telling the unadultrated truth will only anger people and make them deaf even to simple, obvious things. (After all we only see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear. We're only human.) Chris, do you happen to have a view on this issue? It is quite related to the bigger picture of 2JZ tuning. I stopped responding after getting tired of going round and round repeating the same things in various ways. Felt like talking to myself in the end. I still haven't cracked it, although I have eliminated a few potential culprits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I've been thinking about the whole twin core idea for some time. What I thought of giving a try was mounting an intercooler kinda under the car (Behind the rad, in front of the engine) with some kind of heat sink attached to the bottom of it and a hole with maybe a duct in the undertray. The idea being that rather than having air flowing through an IC, you use the air flowing under the car as a heat sink. Then I actually measured my intake temps and found they don't go above 40 degrees anyway, and I've been told by some people who know a lot more about this than most, that there's not too much to be gained by reducing the inlet temps by a great deal more. So I figured why bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 The twin-core setup would have to be in parallel, not series though. Big difference. The downside is that the plumbing would grow quite a bit. In my mind, the ideal supra intercooling would not involve fitting *anything* in front of the coolant rad. The side air intake would be adequate if water was allowed to enter the equation (replacing the SMIC with a hefty air/water rad) At the moment I'm using water as a means of reducing the heatload that reaches the SMIC, and it works fine. But it's lossy. A good thermostatic chargecooler would be more elegant, and still compatible with water/meth injection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Try fitting the FCD and running at 1.3bar theres quite a difference between 1.0 bar and 1.3 bar. yeah that! learnt to walk before you can run, get that FCD installed and run at a proper 1.2-1.3 bar or so and see how you feel then. Hybrids seem ok but it seems that the benifit is a bit marginal. If you really are serious about killing these sorts of cars properly you need to get the wallet out and splash the cash on a single turbo conversion, I don't thing switching to hybrids is going to transform the performance so much that you suddenly kill all of them convincingly. but running a proper 1.2 bar or so from 1 bar is a transformation worth having and it won't cost you much £ That should at least level the playing field or give you the advantage against all apart from that pesky rs6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 ...but running a proper 1.2 bar or so from 1 bar is a transformation worth having you get another 20-30bhp after 4K rpm, so it feels more lively and it won't cost you much £ .. are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 nicely wouldnt involve connectors Get that soldering iron out and book a session with a masseuse for when you've done! I'm reasonably handy with a soldering iron, and will be soldering the +ve and -ve directly inside the ECU, but I will use plugs/sockets to intercept the MAP. This way it will be possible to bypass the FCD by plugging the plugs directly into each other instead of through the VFCC. I'll show you in a minute when I've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 good greif. They really didn't want people messing around with these ECUs did they! Solder-filled screws inside, hardcore sticky stuff holding the casing on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkey Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 you need to get the wallet out and splash the cash on a single turbo conversion, I don't thing switching to hybrids is going to transform the performance so much that you suddenly kill all of them convincingly. I already told him that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 I give up. The FCD isn't going inside the ECU. It's going on the wiring loom side instead I don't fancy cutting the a leg of the main ECU connector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I give up. The FCD isn't going inside the ECU. It's going on the wiring loom side instead But that's where it goes anyway, on the loom. If you had asked we could have told you that:mobile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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