supRo Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 oh, and I know a few people who have run their supras without any filters at all, some for couple of months!!!!!!!!! Is it that the crappy filtered air can cause damage to ceramic turbo blades or damage the engine itself through contamination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 A lot of HKS bolt-on stuff is shite. Period. True. In Japan HKS actually have a pretty poor rep. Ask the average modifier in Japan and he'll tell you the above. Apart from ECU's which most are in no doubt that HKS are superior. Smaller tuning companies that make fewer but much highly quality products are more respected. Like Power Enterprise for example Gaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Now we all agree that alot of aftermarket filters are poo at filtration. They are worse than stock paper filters, always The difference in engine life however depends on miles driven and how dusty the environment is (very measurable too if you do a leakdown test) My question is why do alot of highly tuned cars use the HKS mushroom style filters for example? 1. it's easier to fit than the stock airbox, especially if underbonnet space is at a premium 2. it looks fast 3. it sounds fast 4. it generates sales for the item (profit margins are particularly high for them) I'm sure these tuners (you see pictures everywear, just look at the jap tuning mags) know what they are doing, of course they know what they're doing, they are in the business of selling 'performance' items and rebuilding engines (or selling 'performance' engine parts whenever an engine needs a rebuild) Try feeding a family and paying a shop rent just by changing stock oil/filters... yes they could probably re-build engines as and when they please to but surely for the sake of an air filter, they wouldn't want to do an engine rebuild??? why not? working on people's engines is what they do for a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 As said up to 500 ish BHP the stock box can handle it, putting an aftermarket filter on may give a couple of BHP but at a cost of lower filtration, so why bother (I have a Blitz aftermarket filter BTW!!! ). Mostly for noise and looks. Big singles need a hell of a lot more air going in so they need to reduce the resistance of a stock paper filter, the stress on the engine is so great anyway that a few more particles are not of much concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 It's important to note that all these 'pod' filters register more power on dyno runs (how much really depends on the integrity/abilities of the operator). The lack of airbox and the open bonnet (typical in such 'comparisons') see to that. However in real life if you're stuck in heavy traffic on a summer day the engine bay temps can go over 70C. The lack of a proper airbox is quite acute then, lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprasport Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 seems to me that all these people ripping the hks, apexi etc. are just as gullable as those that like them. it all based on opinion not fact. and everybody has one (opinion that is) and as terribleturner do a before and after dyno and put this to rest. envy could sort this in minutes next time they dyno a supra. could do witha few diffedrent specs though. and as for the temp in engine bay has anyone actually done any tests inside the plastic stock box or behind a heatshield or in a custom box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 make sure you keep the bonnet *shut* during the dyno tests. Also do the stock airbox dyno test at the same engine temp as the 'performance' item (it is a common trick to do the stock last, because by then engine temps have hit maximum and dyno results will start to taper down, magazines may do this because they have advertisers to keep happy). If you are serious, do a leakdown before you fit the pod filter, then another one 10K miles later. See what you get:) My calibra lost 7% (from K&N panel, not even pod!) and Berkshire isn't known for duststorms Never again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb10supra Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 But are those cars built to do real world high mileage. They aren't exactly daily drivers - even the ones that claim to be. Does Terry S run with a HKS filter? Does Matt H, Does Ian C ? Leon? I think K&N is the popular choice here is'nt it?? the draw back that no one has mentioned yet is the extra heat being drawn into the engine by using an open element filter, which is a major + point of the stock box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffvalenti Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 oh, and I know a few people who have run their supras without any filters at all, some for couple of months!!!!!!!!! I know a few stupid people as well, but its not really anything to brag about now, is it? If YOU want to put an HKS filter on YOUR Supra, then by all means go ahead, I'm sure that short term its not going to make a lot of difference to it. 20 or 30k miles down the road you MAY regret it. It all depends on whether you think a bling air filter is worth the risk of an engine rebuild in the future Tuners are in the business of selling parts. On the whole, the shinier the parts are, the more they appeal to todays modifiers. Most people fit dump valves and aftermarket air filters for the visual and aural effect rather than any performance gains. In reality, unless an aftermarket filter is isolated from the engine bay heat, and fed its own sufficient cold air feed, it normally results in an overall power loss When you get to the realms of the serious tuner, extracting the last ounce of power from the car that is possibly available, with all the associated caveats, the problem of poorly filtered air on a (normally) extremely low mileage car, compared with a guest appearance of a rod through the side of the block, or total destruction of one or more pistons, is really of little consequence in the big picture. If, hypothetically, HKS tune a Supra to 1000bhp using their parts and a rival company's Supra "only" makes 900bhp, HKS have great advertising potential to promote their parts. The fact that the car probably never drives on the road enduring real world conditions, and is just trailered from one dyno to another is irrelevant in the world of advertising. OEM parts are rigorously tested to endure real world conditions ecountered by road cars day after day. Tuner parts are engineered to be lighter, look pretty and extract the maximum possible bhp at a given time. Some tuner parts are as well engineered as (or even better than) OEM parts, but, sadly, lots aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 A lot of drag cars run with no filters at all - that must mean it's OK too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supRo Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 Quote: Originally Posted by supRo oh, and I know a few people who have run their supras without any filters at all, some for couple of months!!!!!!!!! I know a few stupid people as well, but its not really anything to brag about now, is it? lol, I meant that humorously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffvalenti Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 lol, I meant that humorously. I was hoping you did, but you can never be too sure on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supRo Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 Maybe a silly thought, but as K & N are american, could it be that Jap tuners are biased when they go for aftermarket filter cones?!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 When I was young(er) and (even) stupid(er) I was pretty experimental. Yes I've run a turbo with no filter at all (on the front of a bike, where it was also getting a lot of crap from the front wheel, lol) That compressor was scarred for life (you could see the pitting on the blades). Then I created a ram-air system, trully a one-off. Under full boost it managed to destroy itself and one of my DIY 'seals' was sucked in the turbo and stopped the compressor dead on it's tracks under boost. I pulled the rubber seal off and it did take me home, with only a few psi max boost and probably a bent shaft as well. Very funny --- looking back. Did I learn my lesson? ...sort of, yeah.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Now we all agree that alot of aftermarket filters are poo at filtration. I'm sure these tuners (you see pictures everywear, just look at the jap tuning mags) know what they are doing The error in the last sentence above is the answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Given money and talent this is how seriously a proper race car manufacturer takes ducting cold air to all the right places, we should strive to emulate this with something similar. It would be very hard to do, but luckily Toyota did it for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 cold air intake from a high-pressure point, ducts with smooth lips, internal diameter mildly increasing to slow the air down without much disturbance, enough airbox volume and lots of active filtering surface. Race car manufacturers...pffff.... instead of slapping a cone 'filter' inside the bay --- But hey, what do *they* know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supRo Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 Thanks for the input Chris. I've seen a TVR cerbera with similar air intake/ducting setup as in that picture. Maybe standard on them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb10supra Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If I ever went for a single, I would try to mount the cone in the front wing and go for some sort of cutout in the wing for increased air flow.....I dont understand why people have not done this yet?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonB Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If I ever went for a single, I would try to mount the cone in the front wing and go for some sort of cutout in the wing for increased air flow.....I dont understand why people have not done this yet?? Well I'm planning on using a duct in the place where the SMIC normally is to duct air into the bottom/side of a sealed box with the filter in. Plus the normal feed from the area in front of the radiator. Shouldn't be too hard. You can easily get ducts and hose from places like Demon Tweeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 As you can see from the attached... My single got a 4" duct setup underneath using air our of the old SMIC duct. And it was sealed away from the engine by a custom Carboard and heat reflective material barrier Might look a bit limp but it worked. The air filter would be ice cold after a run. The hose came from Homebase, cutter from Peter Richards (+ a bit of rubber wrap for the hole) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb10supra Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Very nice Alex, that would be similar to a setup I would try and create, I would'nt worry about it looking limp mate, I would choose functionality over bling any day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supRo Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 Alex, are there normally wiring loom(s) under where you've made that hole? So that I can take that in account before hacking away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Alex, are there normally wiring loom(s) under where you've made that hole? So that I can take that in account before hacking away! I believe it was the side repeater...as mine was a facelift and shouldn't have had wing based repeaters (new nose meant it got them after market) I couldn't say if a non-facelift would have a wire there or not - I'd check before drilling - but that should be the only wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Man Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I think a lot of people buy HKS stuff based on trend, same as the shopping list you found on the side of some cars. The show cars surely needs to be trendy to attract people or protential customers. China Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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