kosmic Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I'm obviously not charging enough Right, my go - I like the E-Manage, it's got the gumption to be able to map a big single around the stock sequential thing. It is, however, a nightmare to sort out the *structure* of the map - the fuelling varies a suprising amount around 3000 to 4100rpm depending on rpm point, throttle position and gear/load/boost pressure. This has taken me a LOT of time and work to sort out with many iterative steps, and even now I'm still debugging small load sites, say 80% throttle in 4th at 3900rpm or 35% throttle in 6th at 3300rpm... however this structure is very portable across non-vvti supras and has proven to be a good base map a few times now Thing is, it has a tendency round this 3000-4100rpm area to run horribly lean (we are talking AFRs of around 17:1) *if* you map this range with the same numbers as the rest of the rev range. The varying boost pressures you get for the same RPM with the same throttle opening is mapped around not only by pulling less air, but also using the additional injector map to fatten it up at certain boost pressures, something you simply cannot do with an AFC. The AFC doesn't even have the resolution to do anywhere near approaching a decent airflow map, and that's only half the story. The ITC is also seriously limited, the EM can adjust ignition timing according to 16 RPM sites and 16 boost pressure sites, so no off-boost slothlike performance just because you've dialled in a blanket -10deg with an ITC, in order to cover your maximum boost... With an AFC you have to either run parts of the map dangerously lean, or so rich it misfires. People seem to think choosing an E-Manage over an AFC is just a case of getting a weeny bit extra power out of it, well, it's not, it's a case of getting decent AFRs at any boost pressure at any point in the rev range, and I've 98% achieved that now and I know I can do the last 2% as I find them and datalog them. Anyway, I'm happy with it because I can map it, I've taught myself from the ground up as I had no other option. I don't really care if anyone else thinks it's great or not, it's good enough for what I want, it reports bloody good AFRs so it's definitely doing the job properly, and if you know me you'll know I don't put up with crap bits of kit I'll get some show-off datalog graphs this weekend hopefully No comment on the AEM stuff, if you can map it it's gonna be better, but that's where you are talking a 10hp difference As CW says, a road turbo car is not something he'd want to map at all and certainly not something to start on - adjusting the factory ECU means at least you are starting with something written by someone who actually knew what they were doing -Ian I know whose gonna be mapping my car in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Get outa here :) S-AFC and ITC (if you can get one as no longer made!) will be £400 min and who will be setting it up for just £250 - that's very very cheap? On the dyno / road tested and all up and running properly in 2.5 / 3 hours? I normally budget around the £600 mapping charge for a day's work for the stand alone / piggy back ecu's Well will take your word for it - and hope it all goes well mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 LOL @ Ian - sorry mate that was meant to read cost of kit AND mapping included You da man on dat ting - no doubt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Get outa here :) S-AFC and ITC (if you can get one as no longer made!) will be £400 min and who will be setting it up for just £250 - that's very very cheap? On the dyno / road tested and all up and running properly in 2.5 / 3 hours? I normally budget around the £600 mapping charge for a day's work for the stand alone / piggy back ecu's Well will take your word for it - and hope it all goes well mate! AFC II was £120 off e-bay and the ITC was £100 off a member off this board do you want the reciepts, does the £600 fee for mapping include your cut paul ? as i'me sure this will inflate your price, great post Ian but that is EXACTLY why i did'nt buy an e-manage, i will just keep it safe and suffer a power loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Oh OK - I was under the impression that after fitting your E-manage you had problems that were not there when you had stock twins on the car? Yes I have an issue with starting in certain circumstances. But it's a weakness/existing problem that's been magnified by the uprated fuel system. Vapour lock is the prime suspect, the problem is in working out what's causing it...it could just be the fuel filter. IT IS NOT A MAPPING ISSUE, the eManage is far superior and safer (due to being able to map out the leanness at 3-4k) to the S-AFC and ITC for the midrange stuff...my maps fcuking great It's always a work in progress cause I, like Ian, want seeing how good I can make the map...I'm making the most accurate base map for all VVTi's going single, my AFR's are great and getting better all the time. My low speed driveability is smooth and gentle to agressive acceleration is spot on...only problems I have are a lack of traction! The VVTi base maps are on me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Paul absolutely none of Dudes failures were down to the SAFC or ITC, FACT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Ah - so second hand parts.... I think you misread his post mate - it talks of dangerous leaness or mis-fires with the AFC... I dont run a dyno or take a cut - the average min cost is £80 per hour plus VAT for mapping - hence the £600 for 6 hours plus petrol assumption etc So who is doing it for you for £250? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 great post Ian but that is EXACTLY why i did'nt buy an e-manage, i will just keep it safe and suffer a power loss Well, do let us know how it all pans out Don't forget those part throttle graphs haha -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Paul Mac - Base maps are available for the eManage on a single...which should load on, be reletively safe and not have massive lean spots. There are no such bae maps for the S-AFC... The eManage is safer and faster to get up and running. It's the absolute min for a Single install imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Guys the SAFC get a bad press IMHO. IF you use conservatively sized injectors its not much of an issue, they are very easy to set up, and the 2 has user definable set points. I agree its not as good as a E-Mange ( no typo) but they do work ok in the correct application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Guys the SAFC get a bad press IMHO. IF you use conservatively sized injectors its not much of an issue, they are very easy to set up, and the 2 has user definable set points. I agree its not as good as a E-Mange ( no typo) but they do work ok in the correct application. Well, one ran my hybrids OK but I wouldn't want to go bigger than 550's and I wouldn't want to convert to a single with one Bad press bad press -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 As I said, conservatively sized injectors, we are talking about a BL61 here right Chis the mange is a better bit of kit, no doubt, as is the MAP ECU, but they can be made to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Well, yeah, but the 3-4k rpm bit is still an issue in my opinion. Anyway, Paul will let us know how things turn out with his setup -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Agreed, but on a SAFC2 you could set these points for an adjustment area. Best of luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 the powerfc always gets over looked here and i'm not sure why. its a great simple ecu with a superb basemap. it has shit apex support but with datalogit is awsome. they can also be picked up for really good prices these days, probably less than e(justabout)manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 PFC isn't mentioned much as they tend to be very hard to get hold of in JZA80 form... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 envy and paul w can get them, you can buy them from japan (takakaira) ebay etc. i suppose the NO auto support is a big issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Well, yeah, but the 3-4k rpm bit is still an issue in my opinion. Anyway, Paul will let us know how things turn out with his setup -Ian Ian you obviously know your shit and for that but Terry has hit the nail on the head hear no-one is arguing you will get a better set up with an e-manage but the original post hear was for a T61 which is what i have with 550s lets get it into perspective, if i hit 500 hp on the dino i'll be buzzin i realise my limitations (money) i have an auto and dont want a snarling undrivable 800 hp T78 monster so for me i went for kit with a track record for doing a job at the power levels i have, who knows in a years time i might be on hear asking your advise on the e-manage but at the moment i dont feel confident someone could set it up properly for me (and the nearest reputable tuner is 60 miles away) i'me just trying to give the guy a balanced view and not scare him shitless that he's going to have to spend £1500-2000 on fuel and timing control for his T61, Paul with regard to £250 for mapping "BUSTED" I confess that was the red wine talking shite, i havent priced that up yet, i did however pay £220 for the itc (second hand) and safc (new) (i know the price of an e-manage) i apologise if i got a little nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Ian you obviously know your shit and for that but Terry has hit the nail on the head hear no-one is arguing you will get a better set up with an e-manage but the original post hear was for a T61 which is what i have with 550s lets get it into perspective, if i hit 500 hp on the dino i'll be buzzin i realise my limitations (money) i have an auto and dont want a snarling undrivable 800 hp T78 monster so for me i went for kit with a track record for doing a job at the power levels i have, who knows in a years time i might be on hear asking your advise on the e-manage but at the moment i dont feel confident someone could set it up properly for me (and the nearest reputable tuner is 60 miles away) i'me just trying to give the guy a balanced view and not scare him shitless that he's going to have to spend £1500-2000 on fuel and timing control for his T61, Paul with regard to £250 for mapping "BUSTED" I confess that was the red wine talking shite, i havent priced that up yet, i did however pay £220 for the itc (second hand) and safc (new) (i know the price of an e-manage) i apologise if i got a little nasty Well, I was sort of just trying to say that there is a facet of going to a single turbo and using an airflow mapper that has to be considered, and that is the sequential transition point. Overall power output and turbo size is pretty much irrelevant at this point, it'll affect all single conversions, and it's a bugger to map around, as Charlie has also found out However, 550cc injectors will make life easier, no doubt about that Conversly though, a T61 won't as it'll spool up faster and give you way more air into the engine then the old stocker first turbo ever did, so that need some serious mapping around. I'm not trying to put a downer on you, if you have chosen this setup and have someone to map it then go for it, I'm genuinely interested in the results as the more data we all get the better informed we all are. Just tell your mapper to concentrate on the midrange and part throttle - you could map the 100% throttle in twenty minutes -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I shouldn't have read this thread, making me think twice now about going single when my twins go!! May just go for hybrids instead!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I shouldn't have read this thread, making me think twice now about going single when my twins go!! May just go for hybrids instead!! I just read a thread where you said that you very rarely speed and that if you do it is to do 90 mph on the motorway. With that in mind, why would your twins "go"? Back on topic - What i said about the AEM earlier goes for the E-manage too. Alex has been very fortunate to have had the help and skill of Ian to call on. I have no one close that wanted to touch the E-manage and had to go miles away to get it mapped (and even then it wasn't done properly)hence my change to a Motec. This is the problem we have in the UK. A lack of skills with mapping certain equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I just read a thread where you said that you very rarely speed and that if you do it is to do 90 mph on the motorway. With that in mind, why would your twins "go"? Think I was just reading the same thread CJ! You should sell it and get an NA Trev Sorry! Gaz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I just read a thread where you said that you very rarely speed and that if you do it is to do 90 mph on the motorway. With that in mind, why would your twins "go"? How long does it take me to get to 90? Breaking the speed limit is no indication of stress on a turbo surely? I am running 1.15 BAR it's only a matter of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I am running 1.15 BAR it's only a matter of time? Well, considering your driving style (based on your comments regarding only speeding on motorways), I doubt you are ever in positive boost long enough to worry about longevity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Well, considering your driving style (based on your comments regarding only speeding on motorways), I doubt you are ever in positive boost long enough to worry about longevity Well I often get called an old man, by my old man!!! The lady friend tells me to put my foot down quite often as well. They seem healthy enough, but as I'm sure you're aware there's no guarantee with things like this - I'm just planning ahead!! They WILL break at some point, it might be after everything else on the car has broken and it's left for dead in a scrappy in 20 years time but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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