Faults since injectors fitted

Ok now this isn't looking good!

I put my car into a garage yesterday to have 650cc injectors put in and the S-AFC set up. When I picked the car up I was told he couldn't set up the S-AFC but with a lot of trouble... he fitted the injectors. Taking it home, when you planted your foot, the car kangaroo hopped and spat a boat load of black smoke. It's possible there was a problem so he upped the fueling to avoid damage on the way home from the garage.

Now the S-AFC has been set up by my mate (I can get the settings if needed) and it's a wreck. At idle (I haven't given it any revs) it's VERY lumpy and there's a deffinate knock from the engine (knock sensor on the S-AFC is at 150!!!).

Coz of the huge amount of carbon from the exhaust I'm going to pull the plugs tomorrow and see what state they're in but could this be something caused by incorrect fitting of the injectors?

Cheers

think you might be best gettin ENVY to do any fitting mate and then limp it to Thor to be set up. as Gaz was sayin they can set up the SAFC for you BUT it's a bit dodgy without a dyno etc etc. probably not a good idea plantin your foot until everythin is set up too! good luck with it mate!!

Yeah I'm in the process of getting it all sorted out. Car is going no where now.

The guy at the garage showed me what was happening when he put his boot down. Only reason I went there in the first place is coz they had rollers to set up the S-AFC

i fancy gettin a small single at some point, i'm terrified of gettin it set up! hopefully ENVY will have a dyno by then!!

Do a search, a lot of people dont like the SAFC as it cant trim the fuel enough with larger injectors.

Even with 650's?

It apparently max's out at 40/50% reduction in the fuelling

So 650 to 440 is only 32% -

Sounds like this is deffo NOT happy set up m8

440 to 650 is almost 50% bigger.

I am not 100% sure that is the exact problem, just giving you a possible suggestion. Do a search, SAFC problems like this have been covered before.

they can be made to run with the safc better than this (i personally don't like the safc).

don't drive the car, never drive a car in this state. if he has upped the fueling you will be overfueling big time and possibly suffered bore wash. knocking at idle is never a good sign but you could be lucky. get someone who has a wideband and who knows these cars to look at it.

richie had safc and 650's on his car, setup reasonably well. have a word with him see if he has the settings available. this will not give you an accurate map (due to unknown fuel pressure) but it's a start.

good luck

Anyone got a wideband? I'd REALLY appreciate some help on this. This past half a year has been a nightmare

It can be done with an AFC, it's got the range to do 650's, just not the resolution for a very accurate map. Don't get them confused

Sounds like there is something deeply wrong, a good idle should be simple enough to sort...

If you suspect an injector isn't firing, you can disconnect coil packs one at a time while the engine is idling, and see if the engine note changes. If it gets worse, that cylinder is working. If it doesn't, it's not working. If it only gets a bit worse whereas other cylinders make it a lot worse, it's not working properly.

-Ian

Yeah I'm gonna have a go at that tomorrow mate It sounds like the piston is coming up and hitting the top (not good) and not sparking

What was the problem with fitting the injectors?

So he couldn't set-up the SAFC at all? Is it working at all? I don't think the stock ecu will handle the extra capacity that the 650's will be giving, so if your currently running with no fuel modification to the stock map that will cause you problems.

Find out EXACTLY what this guy did.

The kangaroo thing sounds like fuel cut of some kind, which, without knowing what's set up and what's not, it is entirely possible.

Don't worry the pistons won't touch the top of the head (it's not an interferance engine)

The guy set the fueling MASSIVLY too high (which he admitted). I got home and reset the S-AFC and had my mate re-do the settings (I'll nip down and jot down the settings in a mo). It just sits and idle's very fussy and there's plenty of engine morement and knock... in short it's not a happy bunny

Ok here's the settings:

Lo: 19%

Hi: 50%

1000 - +12%

1600 - +16%

2200 - +31%

2800 - +33%

3400 - +38%

4000 - +42%

4600 - +42%

5200 - +43%

5800 - +40%

6400 - +40%

7000 - +38%

7600 - +38%

Fcuk me!

They should ALL be -xx%! note the minus sign!

Oh and I'd set your low throttle at 20% and the high at 80%.

The following is a guestimation but it's where I would start...

1000 = -20%

1600 = -20%

2200 = -25%

2800 = -30%

3400 = -30%

4000 = -40%

4600 = -40%

5200 = -40%

5800 = -40%

6400 = -40%

7000 = -40%

7600 = -40%

I don't for 1 second think this will run well or be a good map but I think it would be a lot better than it is right now.

Also your spark plugs will be absolutely useless right now. Take them out and gently clean the black shit off each one - then test the new map and fingers crossed the engine isn't knackered.

DOH! That might explain it then :S At least if we get on the right side of the Y axis it might be easier to set up!

Please note my comment about the plugs too...I added that when I edited.

Yeah that's where we finished tonight. We're gonna give them a good clean coz they'll be CAKED in carbon

The CW settings I had were positive in the Hi throttle map but negative on the low one. But this is from a couple of years back and even if it seems odd to what I know today, it always worked

You've only listed one lot of figures, there should be two, the hi map and the low map. Set your low throttle to 20%, high to something between 50 and 80, and then trim the 1000rpm load site on the low throttlw map to -20%. Start the car and keep dropping this load site until it idles properly. Then let us know a) if this was possible, and b) what the value was.

-Ian

Steve, you're stabbing in the dark mate.

Without feedback from a decent WideBand it's all hit'n'miss.

Even worse, the ECU will be constantly trying to adapt to this, so you'll never know the balance that has been created in the end.

Once you get it running OK-ish, don't forget to stick in the tank a bottle of STP "Total System Cleaner", it's the only one that can get rid of carbon deposits (sort of opening up the engine and doing it yourself). Halfrauds stock it for £14 odd, worth every penny. I've got a picture of it on my 'fuelling' page.

(Do not waste money on any other cleaner, STP or not, they are all bull)

Yep my intention is to get it running a bit better than what it is before I take it to Thor to be set up. Way it is at the mo they'd turn it away.

Lo settings:

1000 - -18%

1600 - -17%

2200 - -16%

2800 - -14%

3400 - -12%

4000 - -10%

4600 - -8%

5200 - -8%

5800 - -11%

6400 - -13%

7000 - -13%

7600 - -13%

Steve,

A brief 101 of EFI fuelling.

The ecu simply tells the injectors to open at a certain point and close a certain amount of time later.

You've swapped your diddy injectors for more manly ones that for a given amount of time will flow more fuel.

So for the X amount of time that the ecu is telling the injectors to open your getting a whole load more fuel to start with. This is the reason why you need to use a fuel computer to *reduce* the amount of time these are opening so at idle and other revs you can match the amount of fuel going into your engine that was going in before you switched injectors.

At high RPM's/boost your diddy injectors were struggling, but your new manly injectors should be about there or there abouts. So you don't need as much or any modification to the fuel map, even though they are pouring fuel in like no tomorrow compared to your old injectors. (Which under these conditions is a good thing)

This is why nearly all of those values should have a -ve sign NOT +ve. Adding more fuel to your already overfuelled engine is not good. Go and give your mechanic a kick up the rear.

For class EFI 102 we've got Closed-loop operation, and how the ECU can automatically trim injector duty (up to a point!) once it realises that you've installed fire hydrants for injectors

For class EFI 102 we've got Closed-loop operation, and how the ECU can automatically trim injector duty (up to a point!) once it realises that you've installed fire hydrants for injectors

FWIW, The J-spec ECU can't trim 550cc injectors in closed loop mode, let alone 650's!

I'm guessing the UK/US spec couldn't trim for 650's either.