Hybrids and standard injectors.

[Carl_S]

Just to clear things up in my mind if I need an upgrade.

 

I dont want to increase BHP anymore, its prob nearing mid 400's as it is.

 

But I was wondering:

 

1) if you have hybrids running at 1.3 bar, do you need to upgrade from stock jpec injectors?

2) what will happen if you don't upgrade and need to? Bang Bang? or just less power & strange noises /performance.

3) If you have bigger injectors will mpg always drop significantly just from having them installed?

4) Do you need to have a fuel trimming device like SAFC or emanage - what do they exactly do?

 

 

 

By the way, I have TOMS racing ecu , and a wallbro fuel pump already fitted, plus eboost2.

 

was thinking of getting these:

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=131667

 

but not sure if its an unecessary expense given that i have no further desire to increase BHP substantially.

 

Carl

[Wez]

You will need to trim the fueling when changing the injectors

[Tricky-Ricky]

As i said to you before, i was running std injectors without any problems, however that doesn't mean that all motors with hybrids will,

you didn't say if you where running a wide band AFR gauge? without this and some way of determining you injector duty cycle, you are running a risk, i have all these devices so i was confident that i had my eye on the ball, so to speak.

You are dealing with an unknown quantity with the TOMs ECU, so my advice would be get a wide band, and i would also get an EMU that way you can data log things like duty cycle etc, you are going to need it anyway if you want to run bigger injectors with any degree of accuracy, i have recently upgraded my injectors for the reasons i gave you via PM, hope this helps, I'm sure there will be more opinions forthcoming.

[CJ]

Just to clear things up in my mind if I need an upgrade.

 

I dont want to increase BHP anymore, its prob nearing mid 400's as it is.

 

But I was wondering:

 

1) if you have hybrids running at 1.3 bar, do you need to upgrade from stock jpec injectors?

I do not think it is a necessity but I would as a safety net.

 

2) what will happen if you don't upgrade and need to? Bang Bang? or just less power & strange noises /performance.

Possibly running lean (although not always the case) and therefore a possible big bang!

 

3) If you have bigger injectors will mpg always drop significantly just from having them installed?

I dont think you would notice a significant change

4) Do you need to have a fuel trimming device like SAFC or emanage - what do they exactly do?

Yes, definitely. The devices allow you to adjust the fuel and iignition timing settings. More so with the Emanage than the SAFC.

[Matt H]

Standard injectors on hybrids, no no no no, my engine blew because of

[Tricky-Ricky]

Standard injectors on hybrids, no no no no, my engine blew because of

 

But did you have any fuel control fitted or wide band to check? makes a big difference;)

[Matt H]

But did you have any fuel control fitted or wide band to check? makes a big difference;)

 

No but if you install bigger injectors the stock cant cope so i would have thought boosting to 1.3+ would need this. regardless of ecu control, the stock injectors are at max duty, nothing can change that.

 

No point in taking the risk, plus you get better power.

[Tricky-Ricky]

No but if you install bigger injectors the stock cant cope so i would have thought boosting to 1.3+ would need this. regardless of ecu control, the stock injectors are at max duty, nothing can change that.

 

No point in taking the risk, plus you get better power.

 

Not true with piggyback ECU injectors will not be at 100%, and for example with hybrids and std injectors i was pulling quite a lot of fuel out of the map at 1.3 bar, its actually farther down the RPM range that you can run into trouble with injector duty when on full boost.

[Matt H]

Not true with piggyback ECU injectors will not be at 100%, and for example with hybrids and std injectors i was pulling quite a lot of fuel out of the map at 1.3 bar, its actually farther down the RPM range that you can run into trouble with injector duty when on full boost.

 

well mine went at very high revs under large load

[JustGav]

No but if you install bigger injectors the stock cant cope so i would have thought boosting to 1.3+ would need this. regardless of ecu control, the stock injectors are at max duty, nothing can change that.

 

No point in taking the risk, plus you get better power.

 

The stock injectors go to max duty as fail safe in the ECU if I remember correctly, not because they are being accurately maintained at 100%

[Carl_S]

Thats helpful guys thanks!

 

 

The stock injectors go to max duty as fail safe in the ECU if I remember correctly, not because they are being accurately maintained at 100%

 

Given that I no longer have the stock ECU but a TOMS Racing one, does this increase the case for injector upgrade or is it irrelevant?

 

 

Standard injectors on hybrids, no no no no, my engine blew because of

 

 

 

How can an engine blow because of the stock injectors failing? when you say blow, what happened? a BHG? a piston snap? explosion? Understand if you don't want to talk about it.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Carl

[tDR]

From my own experience of mapping and pulling fuel all over the place with stock j spec turbos and fuelling I would say there's enough excess to still be safe with hybrids at 1.3bar.

 

I personally would have a go with that setup but then again like Ricky I don't just do stuff and hope for the best - it would be closely monitored for both correct AFR and any detonation both during mapping and for a good while running afterwards to ensure it was safe.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[tDR]

Thats helpful guys thanks!

 

Given that I no longer have the stock ECU but a TOMS Racing one, does this increase the case for injector upgrade or is it irrelevant?

 

tDR - Irrelevant. The TOMS ECU is mapped for whatever the car had on it when it was mapped, including standard injectors. My best guess would be an aggressive ignition map with some fuelling pulled because that's what the japs like to do.

 

How can an engine blow because of the stock injectors failing? when you say blow, what happened? a BHG? a piston snap? explosion? Understand if you don't want to talk about it.

 

tDR - I've never heard of the stock injectors failing as such and that includes on all the BPU cars running about with no piggyback or standalone ECU control to stop them pulling 100% as a failsafe. Matt ran into trouble because of a lack of suitable control device / mapping for his setup at the time.

 

Thanks

 

Carl

 

Comments above. IMO you need a suitable piggyback or standalone ECU - MAP ECU2, EMU or Link for example. Then have the car mapped for your target boost level.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[Carl_S]

Thats set that straight then, thanks tDR.

 

since the car was mapped to be safe at 1.3 bar, I'll just see how it goes. Might invest in a AFR though, but normally im running 1.1 on it all the time.

 

Many thanks for your input and advice.

 

Carl

[Homer]

Brian, I had a read through the old threads on here and everything seems to indicate that the TOMS ecu is a plug and play unit and not mappable. Do you recall where you got your info from?

[Homer]

Thats set that straight then, thanks tDR.

 

since the car was mapped to be safe at 1.3 bar, I'll just see how it goes. Might invest in a AFR though, but normally im running 1.1 on it all the time.

 

Many thanks for your input and advice.

 

Carl

 

Don't assume that Carl, from what I can find its not mapped to a specific car or boost, but does make some ignition changes.

 

Do you have an AFR gauge fitted?

[CJ]

Don't assume that Carl, from what I can find its not mapped to a specific car or boost, but does make some ignition changes.

 

Do you have an AFR gauge fitted?

 

I would agree. AFAIK, it is definitely a plug and play. If I were carl and was worried, I would buy an AFR and something like an EMB and have someone look at what can be achieved with the current injectors. It would probably cost about the same(ish) as what he is thinking of spending with the injectors anyway and, as has been said previously, if he did buy the injectors he would still need something to control them.

 

I hope that makes sense, it is 2 hours later here and I have been out on the beer!

[Tricky-Ricky]

To alter timing in a std ECU calls for a ROM editor which the Japanese tuning companies are good at, ie Mines,Tom's etc, and if you have that then you can make changes to just about everything, so don't assume that only timing has been changed.

[Homer]

To alter timing in a std ECU calls for a ROM editor which the Japanese tuning companies are good at, ie Mines,Tom's etc, and if you have that then you can make changes to just about everything, so don't assume that only timing has been changed.

 

Good info. Even more reason to get an AFR (and even EGT) gauge and see whats actually going on in current spec

[tDR]

Yep as above - my assumption was the TOMS unit had been fitted and mapped in Japan to whatever his car or the original car the PnP ECU was created for (mapping had to take place at some point). From what I've seen of the Blitz Access and Mines VXROM ECU's of a similar nature - they tend to have aggressive ignition maps to make the most of Jap fuel and only pull a little fuelling.

 

I should stress that as it is somewhat of an unknown quantity, I would treat it as a standard ECU and get at least a piggyback to empower you to be in control so you can match the mapping to your mods. I always worry about det when these jap mapped units get over here so something that lets you alter timing would be a good idea IMO.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[lui]

Hi Carl just recently had engine rebuild & Envy Stage 3 Hybrids fitted to mine have a look at my sig below show's you good spec's

of what i have done with upgrades

 

Just to clear things up in my mind if I need an upgrade.

 

I dont want to increase BHP anymore, its prob nearing mid 400's as it is.

 

But I was wondering:

 

1) if you have hybrids running at 1.3 bar, do you need to upgrade from stock jpec injectors?

2) what will happen if you don't upgrade and need to? Bang Bang? or just less power & strange noises /performance.

3) If you have bigger injectors will mpg always drop significantly just from having them installed?

4) Do you need to have a fuel trimming device like SAFC or emanage - what do they exactly do?

 

 

 

By the way, I have TOMS racing ecu , and a wallbro fuel pump already fitted, plus eboost2.

 

was thinking of getting these:

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=131667

 

but not sure if its an unecessary expense given that i have no further desire to increase BHP substantially.

 

Carl

[Carl_S]

So to confirm then: my TOMS ecu is plug and play, and not mapped to the car? or is it just not remappable?

 

BTW it was fitted in this country. all the engine mods were done here, cosmetics in Japland.

 

 

[Carl_S]

Hi Carl just recently had engine rebuild & Envy Stage 3 Hybrids fitted to mine have a look at my sig below show's you good spec's

of what i have done with upgrades

 

You must be very proud of all that man.

[Carl_S]

Don't assume that Carl, from what I can find its not mapped to a specific car or boost, but does make some ignition changes.

 

Do you have an AFR gauge fitted?

 

No AFR fitted mate. I don't know how much they cost to fit, and what I would be looking for on the dial anyway.

[CJ]

So to confirm then: my TOMS ecu is plug and play, and not mapped to the car? or is it just not remappable?

 

BTW it was fitted in this country. all the engine mods were done here, cosmetics in Japland.

 

 

 

As I recall, Bijal did the work on the car and therefore we are assuming he fitted the Toms ECU. That being the case (although I am not convinced that is correct about Bijal fitting the ECU) you can almost guarantee Bijal would not have remapped the car.