Mines ECU update

[Alex]

I've had another word with our Uk rep for MINES and had the following questions answered. If you can think of others you want to ask let me know and I'll send them off to him.

>1.) Does the MINES ECU have a built in FCD (Fuel Cut Defencer)?

Yes.

 

>2.) Does the MINES ECU have a built in SLD (Speed Limiter Defencer)?

Yes.

 

>3.) Is the MINES ECU capable of supply the correct quantity of fuel at

>over 1bar of pressure (15 PSI)?

Up to 1.1kg/mm2.

 

>4.) What is the maximum boost pressure I can run with a MINES ECU >and MINES 540cc injectors?

Up to 500ps.

(It is capable of using HKS single turbine, too.)

 

>5.) What is the Minimum RON of UK fuel that the MINES ECU can >support?

100.

We experienced knocking at 98 RON.

 

 

So there we have it 100 UK ron is what we really need though we should all be able to get away with Optimax+Millers..but I think all MINES ECU owners will now have to face a bill for a standard or Blitz ECU + an SLD and an FCD + any Fuel computer you'd need....

 

Yey.

[Adam W]

Those responses don't seem to tally . . . it says that fuelling is correct up to 1.1kg/cm2, but then says that you're alright up to 500ps (about 480bhp?) which I would imagine requires hefty boost pressure to attain.

[Guest Martin F]

 

Errr isn't that 500ps some sort of measurement of boost pressure, not output power??

 

Read the post again Adam.

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam W]

When you see car reviews and adverts, they often quote engine output in Ps.  Not sure what it stands for but I'm pretty certain it's an equivalent, "european version" of BHP, ie power rather than pressure.  Never, EVER heard of anyone measuring boost in ps.  Bar, atm, kg/cm2, psi, mmHg, etc, etc . . . . but not ps.

Somebody prove me wrong?

[Guest Martin F]

 

Me neither, but be great to find out what he was quoting.

 

 

[Alex]

The chap is japanese so you will have to excuse his reply and understand what he is saying may not tally 100% with my question.

 

Despite his lack of English he has been thoroughly helpful so far.

 

What he's saying is that with the usual assortment of upgrades the MINES ECU and injectors can support the system up to 500ps which is about 540BHP I believe. I'm sure someone on the list can do the conversion. ps is not the same as BHP, but they arn't that dissimilar.

 

He actually answered the question I should have asked and not the one I did ask as he answered it in the question before.

 

I think I will ask him about the traction control system and find out if its fully compatable.

 

(Edited by Alex Holdroyd at 4:37 pm on Nov. 8, 2001)

[GavinL]

Quote: from Adam Wootten on 3:52 pm on Nov. 8, 2001[br]Those responses don't seem to tally . . . it says that fuelling is correct up to 1.1kg/cm2, but then says that you're alright up to 500ps (about 480bhp?) which I would imagine requires hefty boost pressure to attain.

 

Not on a single turbo it isn't. 1 bar pressure on a large turbo will produce more power than 1 bar on a small turbo.

[Adam W]

Ah hell . . . this is the point where despite my best efforts (and those of several people to explain it to me!) I get confused!

 

I understand that a large turbo will have to work less hard to create the same pressure at the inlet manifold, so the air will be cooler and denser than with a stock turbo . . . but isn't pressure proportional to temperature anyway?

1 bar at the inlet manifold will always result in the same BHP, regardless of how you generate it . . . ???

 

Are you saying that you could generate 500ps at 1 bar with a big turbo, and the Mines ECU and injectors would provide enough fuelling for it . . . . AND the same injectors only provide enough fuelling for 1.1 kg/cm2 (about 1 bar) pressure with stock turbos (about 320bhp)???

 

Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree?

[Alex]

Adam,

 

What are you on about?

 

The injectors and ECU combined can SUPPORT the system upto 500ps. That bit has nothing to do with the turbo's and the bigger injectors don't supply more power they can just allow for more power.

 

A big turbo pushes more air at the same pressure due to the fact it IS physically bigger and has bigger inlet and outlet ports.

 

(Edited by Alex Holdroyd at 6:03 pm on Nov. 8, 2001)

[Adam W]

It says that the maximum boost pressure you can run with the Mines ECU and injectors is 1.1kg/cm2 (I'm assuming that the mm2 bit is a typo!) . . . it also says the maximum power output you can run is 500ps.  Surely if the injectors can chuck enough fuel in to run OK at 500ps, it's not going to start running lean at 1.1kg/cm2?  I *think* that's what I was trying to say before I went off on one . . .

 

I understand that injectors do not create horsepower, but to get ~500BHP you will need to be burning a shitload of fuel (with a large turbo providing a corresponding amount of air).

[Alex]

Fuel pressure is normally high enough to support up to *enough* hp.

 

Fuel injectors are normally ok for 1hp per 1cc so 540cc injectors should allow for 540HP. This is a general rule of thumb. The problem is not the injectors its the ECU not knowing what to do beyond 1.1 bar boost. It doesn't sit there thinking oh shit he's floored it and boosted to 1.4bar it thinks he's floored it I'll just keep supplying the amount of fuel he should need at my maximum...1.1bar. So you see it starts to run lean as the air mass to fuel ratio has dived as l understand it anyway.

 

So you see its not the lack of ability of the system but a case of someone only bothered to create a fuel map for up to 1.1bar ...but I guess it should be ok for most applications!

[Guest Ash]

 

Quote: from Adam Wootten on 5:29 pm on Nov. 8, 2001[br]Ah hell . . . this is the point where despite my best efforts (and those of several people to explain it to me!) I get confused!

 

I understand that a large turbo will have to work less hard to create the same pressure at the inlet manifold, so the air will be cooler and denser than with a stock turbo . . . but isn't pressure proportional to temperature anyway?

 

 

Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree?

 

Totally up the wrong tree, I'm afraid, as you are forgetting to include volume in your thinking (and flow too but that would be being picky).

 

By definition, pressure must include some kind of volume somewhere down the line. And, as the intake of an engine is by no means a fixed volume, then GavinL is absolutely right.

 

By the way, if you increase pressure into a reducing volume temperature actually decreases.

 

Yours,

J

[Steve Cargill]

Isn't 1 bar of pressure at the throttle body 1 bar, surely it doesn't matter if it was pushed there by 2 little turbos or 1 big turbo.  If the big turbo moved more air then you'd get more pressure at that point.

 

Does that sound right?

[Doughie]

PS is *metric* horsepower.

 

To convert PS to Bhp, multiply by 0.9863.

 

eg. stock UK Supra = 326bhp = 330.5 PS

 

[Adam W]

Alex - I get you now, it's an electronics issue, not a physical one relating to maximum injector flow.   BUT surely the Mines ECU has an extended fuel map in it that goes to higher boost pressures than the stock ECU?  Rather than the pressure signal to the stock ECU being clamped by an FCD, the pressure signal is fed into the Mines ECU, which sees the boost going up, and increases the flow . . . isn't that it's primary purpose?

 

Steve - Exactly my point, explained far better than I managed to!

[Steve Cargill]

Adam, I thought that was sort of what you were saying, but I got a little lost following it (on the vino again!) and I like to get things as simply as possible - i.e. I like one word answers such as yes, no, bollox etc...

 

I don't know if there would be any temperature difference in the air at 1 bar between 2 littles or one big turbo.  Instinct tells me no as the termperature raise should be proportinate to the compression - in fact there may be a LITTLE less in the twin turbo as there is more metal to disserpate the heat.  Probably not enough to matter thought.

[mark brown]

I think what Ash is saying is that for example, the figures are just an example, that a small turbo will allow say a maxim of 1 cubic metre of air to be compressed to 1 bar and a large turbo will allow 5 cubic metres air to be compressed to 1 bar due to flow limitations. Putting 5 cubic metres  of air into the engine with the appropriate level of fuel will produce a lot more power.

 

Trying compensate for having smaller turbos by increasing the bosst pressure will be limited by the flow characteristic of the turbos and the fact that overheating the air will reduce power by making the air less dense, thus running very high boost on standard turbos, outside their efficiency range, may actually result in less power.

 

I'm not sure my understanding is corrct, Ash could you confirm.

 

Mark

[Alex]

Adam,

 

The stock ecu as Ash has pointed out in another big thread at the moment is not capable of fueling past 1 bar....so the Mines gives you and extra .1 bar + it is able to handle 540cc Mines injectors....so it IS a big improvement on the old ECU but not in most accessible way. For me to make the most of it will involve a big single/mid sized twin's upgrade....

 

 

[Adam W]

So the Mines ECU will fuel correctly regardless of whether you have a stock turbo set-up at 1.1bar, or a HUGE turbo at 1.1 bar.  Got that.

 

I still don't understand why the latter would give you more power . . .  surely if a big turbo flowed more air than a small turbo into a given area, the pressure would be greater?  I understand that one would give cooler air and one hotter (outside of it's efficiency range), but is that ALL that the power difference is down to?

[Alex]

Hmmm not sure Adam...but I think Matt's and Ash's posts make sense.

 

.. on your point, I would guess that when you use a BIG single or twin kit you actually reduce resistance in the system due to the fact that the exhaust flow though the turbine will be much easier and heat from the exhaust sinks into a bigger turbo (surface area and all that). So the new cold air doesn't get heated so much and can stay denser at a given pressure. Thus you flow more air in total.....

 

Hmm maybe that's all it is.... please could someone with a better understanding of these things comment?

 

Personally, if I upgrade to a big single or GT Twin kit, I would also replace the valve train, cams and put on a Sound Performance intake manifold to make sure those big nasty new Turbo's had all the room possible to breathe...thus reducing friction in the system and heat...marvellous...off to see my bank manager!

 

(Edited by Alex Holdroyd at 10:35 am on Nov. 9, 2001)

[Guest Ash]

 

Quote: from mark brown on 10:27 pm on Nov. 8, 2001[br]I think what Ash is saying is that for example, the figures are just an example, that a small turbo will allow say a maxim of 1 cubic metre of air to be compressed to 1 bar and a large turbo will allow 5 cubic metres air to be compressed to 1 bar due to flow limitations. Putting 5 cubic metres  of air into the engine with the appropriate level of fuel will produce a lot more power.

 

Trying compensate for having smaller turbos by increasing the boost pressure will be limited by the flow characteristic of the turbos and the fact that overheating the air will reduce power by making the air less dense, thus running very high boost on standard turbos, outside their efficiency range, may actually result in less power.

 

I'm not sure my understanding is corrct, Ash could you confirm.

 

Mark

 

 

Correct, yes.

 

You have touched on an important point here. People get fixated by boost pressure. I think that's because boost pressure is what is generally measured. In the sense that I never see adverts for an in-car flow gauge, but there are zillions advertising boost-pressure gauges.

 

There is a very simple analogy to explain what goes on in terms of flow and pressure. Air flows down a pipe much like water. Because we have all seen water then it becomes easier to imagine.

 

The power output of an engine is dependent upon what weight of air you can flow through the intake and out of the exhaust (and mix with the appropriate amount of fuel, of course).

 

So imagine 2 water tanks, tank "A" fed by a 1" hose and tank "B" fed by a 12" hose. Keep the water pressure the same and it is obvious which tank is going to be filled first.

 

Air-flow of a turbo is basically determined by the size of the compressor wheel. The larger the wheel, the greater the flow. Fitting a larger compressor wheel is the equivalent of filling a tank with a bigger-sized hose.

 

So a large turbo, at 1-Bar boost (say) will flow more air than a small turbo for the same given pressure. That's why you are quite correct in what you say, Mark. Because power is not determined by boost pressure. Power is determined by FLOW.  

 

Yours,

J

[Adam W]

WOOHOO!  I finally got my head round it!  And to think I did a year of Fluid Dynamics at uni . . . . .

 

Well done Ash for explaining it to a donkey like me!

[Alex]

So any way.....

 

Can any one think of some good question I should get answered about the MINES ECU?

[Gareth Davies]

Yeah wtf do they only manage fuel up to 1.1 kg/cm? Is it limited by the stock 02 sensor etc. If I was replacing an ECU that would be most of the point! Oh well guess it's useful to know.

 

Do you know if it's a plug and play ecu (i.e. straight swap) or does it all need rewiring? Something I really should try and find out before I attach the RLTC to it.

[mark brown]

Probably mapped only to that level as the standard injectors will probably be reaching close to maxium acceptable duty cycle at that point. Also above that level of boost you should use an FMIC or at least water injection. The standard Intercooler is proably just about ok at the maximum the ECU is programmed for.

 

The standard lambda sensor is unlikely to have any effect on the overall limitations as it only affects the mixture at idle and under cruise conditions, under all other conditions the system operates closed loop and from the map programmed into the ECU.

 

Mark Brown