Dragonball Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 An interesting article by Lawrence over on the GTR board - worth reading IMHO (paragraphs and colours mine for ease of reading - I hope!) Intro I have decided to write this article as an introduction into the comparisons between two well known aftermarket engine management systems. I have decided to do this to educate a few people, offer an opportuinity for comparisons to be sought, and decisions to be made, particularly helpful to members of the forum who own modified Japanese sports cars. The two different ECUs that I would like to compare are 2 of the most popular aftermarket ECU'sfor modified Japanese Sports Cars. HKS F-Con V Pro & Apexi Power FC The necessity for optimum control over a vehicle's engine is heightened as a car's engine is modified and transformed beyond intentions and parameters set by manufacturersand controlled by the stock Engine Control Unit. At clubman levels, where the investments into engine modification and aftermarket upgraded engine components are high, the particular need forprecise control is paramount into both longetivity of the engine, and ability for the user togain full advantage of the investment he/she has made. The requirements of an aftermarket ECU are that it must enable the user to adjust and alter the fuelling of the engine,the ignition timing of the engine, control over auxiliary engine functions, to record and monitor the engine's activity,to enable interaction between the user and the ECU, and incorporate safety systems and fail safes to ensure against engine damage. The following is a comparative analysis of each of the aftermarket ECUs I have chosen to study. ECM Type (A description) HKS F-Con V Pro: A fully featured stand alone engine management system incorporating a "piggy-back" fuel computer interface. - Utilises Factory ECU Apexi Power FC: A complete stand alone total engine management system - Replaces Factory ECU 1. Resolution of Adjustability (What levels can user adjust main fuel/ignition points to) HKS F-Con V Pro: 32x32 Fuelling & Ignition Point Adjustment User defined selection range Apexi Power FC: 20x20 Fuelling & Ignition Point Adjustment (increased with dataloggit PC software) 5x5 map sections 2. Ability to control drive by wire? HKS F-Con V Pro : Yes Apexi Power FC: No 3. Engine Monitoring System (What can the ECM monitor?) HKS F-Con V Pro. - Complete total engine monitoring via software - Parameter Limts / Warning Functions user defined for any variable. - Datalogging Function enables user to record and re-run data accumulated through all of car's sensors over defined period of time. Apexi Power FC. - 10 monitored parameters displayed via commander - Engine RPM - Ignition Timing - Vehicle Speed - Air Flow Voltage (Pressure Sensor Voltage) - Injector Duty Cycle - Boost - Knocking Level - Battery Voltage - Intake Air Temp - Water Temp 4. Functions HKS F-Con V Pro. - Total Control over Car's Electronic Systems. - Main Functions include: - Ability to store 4 different fuel/ignition/boost maps - Fuelling Mapping - Ignition Mapping - Boost Mapping - Injection Format - Additional Injector Control - Nitrous Oxide Injection Control - Launch Control - Multiple User Defined Rev Limits - User defined activation levels via pressure, speed, revs, temperature - Acceleration Enrichment Correction - Cranking Fuel Injection Control - Water temp / fuel injection control - Anti-Lag Control - Leading & Trailing Ignition Control - Water Injection Control - Boost Ramp Control - Auto A/F Ratio Compensator Apexi Power FC - Fuelling Mapping - Ignition Mapping - Boost Mapping (with seperate boost control unit) - user Defined Rev Limit - Acceleration Enrichment Correction - Cranking Fuel Injection Control - Water temp / fuel injection control - VTEC Control (on Honda Vehicles only) - Leading & Trailing Ignition Control (on some vehicles only) 5. Injection Format? (How can the ECM Control different injection formats?) HKS F-Con V Pro. - Batch, Sequential or Staged Apexi Power FC - Sequential Only. 6. Datalogging Function? HKS F-Con V Pro.- Yes Apexi Power FC.- No 7. User Interface (How does the user access the ECM?) HKS F-Con V Pro:Through Software input by recognised HKS tuners only Apexi Power FC:Through Commander input by individual/owner 8. Safety? (How does ECM ensure engine safety and longetivity) HKS F-Con V Pro - Auto A/F Ratio Compensator F-Con will calibrate entire engine mapping to suit user defined correct A/f Ratio, and will never let engine run detrimentally lean (e.g in a case of a blocked injector) - Warning Levels pre defined by user - Limp Mode Activation pre defined by user - Cut Off Activation of any ECU controlled electrical system, defined by user - Use of aftermarket sensors to ensure more accurate readings. - Datalogging. - Active Parameter Display, Warning, Peak and Hold and Recording via software Apexi Power FC - Peak and Hold Function via Commander - Warning Level Activation via C.E.L 9. Market Price in Japan HKS F-Con V Pro : ~130,000 Yen = ~?650 Apexi Power FC : ~80,000 Yen = ~?400 Conclusion. If you consider the requirements for an aftermarket ECM, as described in the section identifying the aim and its role within the car, it must be decided how closely the functions offered by the ECM meet the requirements. Levels of Engine adjustability, Levels of Car Electronic Systems Control, Safety Measures and base functions are all to be considered in a solution to the need for total engine and electrics management, and in thus, the superiority of the HKS F-Con V Pro ECM is clearly indicated. The F-Con's major disadvantage to the Apexi Power FC is limited to its interface to the user, in that the interface requirements of the F-Con are a computer and computer based software which although portable to an extent,does not meet the interface simplicity of the Apexi Power FC's handy, In-car control device named " the Commander ". The Ultimate System? Neither! For market leading Aftermarket Engine Management Systems, offering the greatest degree of engine and electronics control, leading-edge technology and design quality, neither system is able to match the Engine Management Systems offered by Motec. The M400,M600 or M800 currently offer the greatest levels of control and adjustment available to any electronic management system currently on the market, and represents the pinnacle of aftermarket EMS. Interface remains as in the case of the HKS F-Con, in that the Motec EMS is configured via a computer interface. Hope you enjoyed reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 doesn't mention anywhere the use of datalogit with the PFC which makes the comparisons made inacurate. is the software available to the end user for the fcon these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 doesn't mention anywhere the use of datalogit with the PFC which makes the comparisons made inacurate. is the software available to the end user for the fcon these days? ?? sorry didn't understand that first bit No there is no software available for the F-Con And people should be aware that they have built in obsolesence with the silver ones that come over within the jap spec cars - the UK distributors will not programme them (something that is well known!) Although it is reported that some ex-HKS tuners will do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Apexi have capitulated and seen the sense (neccessity?) in releasing a semi crippled version of the Power Excel software for the Power FC, and apparently sales have increased dramatically in Japan. Maybe HKS will see the sense in selling a full package, rather than a tie to a VERY limited range of tuners in the UK, none of whom, AFAIK, run a proper engine dyno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 Chris - you have, I seem to remember, always been a fan of the PFC? How do you rate it as a replacement ECU, or is it best to keep some functions etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 For what it costs it works quite well, I have one on a Skyline engine and it's OK, no way is it ever going to be as vesratile as a Motec or whatever, but it does the job if on a budget. At least YOU have control over mapping as you can get the software. The "proper" Skyline engine that's nearly finished is going on a Motec M800 though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 ?? sorry didn't understand that first bit it means that the info you quoted is wholely inaccurate because there is no software to allow you or your chosen non hks tuner to do any of that stuff with the fcon. the PFC on the other hand has a lot more funcionality than is listed above when used with datalogit (or power excel) and you or your non apexi tuner can use them all. i think the fcon pro is a good system and im not trying to knock it but the info as you have presented it is misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 it means that the info you quoted is wholely inaccurate because there is no software to allow you or your chosen non hks tuner to do any of that stuff with the fcon. the PFC on the other hand has a lot more funcionality than is listed above when used with datalogit (or power excel) and you or your non apexi tuner can use them all. i think the fcon pro is a good system and im not trying to knock it but the info as you have presented it is misleading. I agree.... also, the 20x20 resolution limit is is innacurate too - it's much better when used with dataloggit software on a laptop. Also, as the name of this software (readily available to the general public) would suggest - it also allows full datalogging of engine data! In my opinion, the PFC is the superior offering to the FCon V. Bri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 Ah...I understand. You are quite right the major disadvantage of the F-Con is the 'single shot' nature of it's tuning by HKS recognised tuners only. Have edited...as required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamer Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Someone please correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Motec M800 almost twice the price of the HKS unit ? Why do a comparison of the Apexi and the HKS, then after sum it up with 'the motec is better' without providing the motec specs just like the other two ? Bit silly really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 Motec will cost you min £3500+ inc mapping I believe - so yes a tad more So add something and write it up then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamer Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 I think the £3500+ price tag is telling enough. For that kinda dosh it better be damn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supra dan Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Apexi Power FC: A complete stand alone total engine management system - Replaces Factory ECU are there any issues with the pfc controling other stuff on the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 I understand that even with a MOTEC they will leave the stock ECU to control the 'lesser functions' I think the comparison between this and the Greddy E-manage would be the next logical step? Can anyone add? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamer Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 That reminds me. I do belive that the Apexi can only be run on a Manual equipped car. Whereas the HKS can run both the manual and the auto box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Apexi Power FC: A complete stand alone total engine management system - Replaces Factory ECU are there any issues with the pfc controling other stuff on the car? no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 That reminds me. I do belive that the Apexi can only be run on a Manual equipped car. Whereas the HKS can run both the manual and the auto box. i think they(PFC) are jap only as well, i have never seen one on a uk car. how much buggering about that would be required to make it work could be a little or a lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamer Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 As far as I know it would work on a UK spec, same amount of work involved for both I would assume as it is really up to what mods the specific car has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 i don't mean the mapping. it comes as plug and play for the jspec but the uk has some different/extra ecu pins. off the top of my head MAF sensor. the supplied map from apex (which is very good but extra aggressive with ign timing) would also plug and play on the stock jspec engine. no such thing exists for the uk spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tDR Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 UK Spec would need converted to MAP air flow measurement and would also need the injectors changed to high impedance as per the jdm car. The base map wouldn't work because of whatever MAP sensor and injectors you chose to use - it would need some rough correction factors entered to get the car to run and then would need fine tuned really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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