Fuel system upgrade and possibly cams.. thoughts?

Taking the car back to the dyno in a couple of weeks. It was only running 6psi boost last time due to faulty boost solenoid but now thats sorted I have booked it in for a mapping session and more boost. I need to upgrade the fuel system a bit first though (and fast!) so seeking options and what others are running.

Goals are 600 whp ish -650 whp with current turbo (I'm not entirely sure what it will do but my tuner thinks 700 tops)

I run a walbro 255 in tank at the minute. 800cc SARD sidefeeds in the stock rail.

Now, I don't want to change the fuel rail and injectors mainly due to time (to dyno) and also because I don't need to yet.

He suggested putting an 044 inline after the walbro (which will easily cover my power needs), concerns I have are two pumps heating the fuel up unnecessarily and I don't think I could stage them at this (in series) . The Link will stage a second pump, so my other option is keep stock lines (for now) and put twin walbros in tank (stage one of them) and then make the rail fed on both ends (will drill and tap and add AN feed), and return from centre back to tank via fuelab FPR.

Or, fit an 044 I have already, in tank to replace the walbro, remove fuel dampener thing, dual feed the rail, and return back by fpr and then stock return line..

Lastly, I know cams will make this easier, but I don't think they are needed for this power level correct? I will certainly add them at some point in the future but want to get it mapped as is because the next phase will be larger injectors, bigger turbo etc

Cheers

What turbo is it?

I would personally just replace the 255 for a wolbro 450, no need to run a noisey bosche or use two pumps imo

We have Twin Walbro 485lph with Teflon fuel lines and a larger fuel filter. Also have ASNU 1500cc injectors with a top feed Hypertune fuel rail. Currently 654rwhp (700bhp flywheel) on V-power and 708rwhp (750+Bhp) on 70% ethanol mix.

You should be able to make 600whp on stock cams but depends also on other supporting mods.

Why don't you just upgrade the fuel setup and then have it fully mapped?

What turbo is it?

 

I would personally just replace the 255 for a wolbro 450, no need to run a noisey bosche or use two pumps imo

It's a Precision PT67 .81 AR DBB, cheers yes i was wondering about the 450.. Not sure what it will support but reckon it will be ok

We have Twin Walbro 485lph with Teflon fuel lines and a larger fuel filter. Also have ASNU 1500cc injectors with a top feed Hypertune fuel rail. Currently 654rwhp (700bhp flywheel) on V-power and 708rwhp (750+Bhp) on 70% ethanol mix.

 

You should be able to make 600whp on stock cams but depends also on other supporting mods.

 

Why don't you just upgrade the fuel setup and then have it fully mapped?

Thanks Chris, sounds like you have a lot of headroom with that system.

Reason I don't want to build the system fully before I dyno is mainly that I want to get it on the streets for a few months while the weather is decent, and secondly because I need to work out where I want to take it power wise and then build the fuel to suit. Also is your fuel pump staged? I may well be going the Syvecs route as the (excellent) tuner I have ended up with loves them and it offers way more functions than the Link I have now. I'm not overly keen on staged pumps in case one stops working at a critical moment but I would think thats the only way to keep the fuel cool.

I know people have run 750whp with a walbro in tank feeding an inline 044, but I don't really want the 044 noise if I can help it. I may end up having to rearrange my dyno slot but they are 6 weeks ahead so it will be a big wait :/

I would personally just replace the 255 for a wolbro 450, no need to run a noisey bosche or use two pumps imo

I prefer simple one pump solutions unless really needed, less to go wrong

The thing is he will struggle to make 700bhp on stock fuel lines with a single Walbro 450lph pump.

I know people have run 750whp with a walbro in tank feeding an inline 044, but I don't really want the 044 noise if I can help it. I may end up having to rearrange my dyno slot but they are 6 weeks ahead so it will be a big wait :/

Do you mean via a swirl tank?

ie 255 being used as a lift pump to the swirl tank, 044 from swirl tank to filter then rail?

Do you mean via a swirl tank?

 

ie 255 being used as a lift pump to the swirl tank, 044 from swirl tank to filter then rail?

Not sure mate, just been reading up on supraforums, there is zero technical info on there though about it! The way I read it was it was direct inline though.

I will have to call the tuner and check his advice again. I wanted them to do it as it would be easier for me currently and then they could map it but they don't have time as they have well over 20 project cars in already .

Heres where I found the info, looks like direct in series to me

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?590579-hp-capability-of-bosch-044-fed-by-walbro/page2

The thing is he will struggle to make 700bhp on stock fuel lines with a single Walbro 450lph pump.

struggle is ok! I would be happy with 600 to be honest but I agreed we would see what we could get out of the turbo and I don't want fuelling to be the limiting factor if possible.

That thread is from 2010 so the info is likely out of date, I have not seen or heard of anyone running pumps in-line, either parallel or via swirl pot is quite normal.

A single 255lph use to run Supra`s with 600 FWHP and was used by many here, mine use to run 550 FWHP all day with a single 255lph pump.

I am planning to use a single 450 on my 996 which will pushing 700hp, the pump should be capable, but as mentioned above your fuel lines may be an issue.

Note that figures quoted in the US as RWHP tend to match up to our FWHP figures, well they certainly use to anyway

That thread is from 2010 so the info is likely out of date, I have not seen or heard of anyone running pumps in-line, either parallel or via swirl pot is quite normal.

 

A single 255lph use to run Supra`s with 600 FWHP and was used by many here, mine use to run 550 FWHP all day with a single 255lph pump.

 

I am planning to use a single 450 on my 996 which will pushing 700hp, the pump should be capable, but as mentioned above your fuel lines may be an issue.

 

Note that figures quoted in the US as RWHP tend to match up to our FWHP figures, well they certainly use to anyway

Very true. US figures are still inflated!

I am tempted to install the 044 in tank and upgrade the fuel lines from the fuel filter (a new one) and remove the pulsation damper line, (and install the FPR and make the rail dual feed) I reckon that will give me plenty of headroom to meet my goals for now. Will redo the 044 wiring in heavy gauge as well as that's meant to be an issue.

I would like to just fit a walbro 450 but I can't see how it can keep up with the Bosch under decent boost when the sizes are taken into account! ok so the 450 isn't shown but it doesn't seem to be any larger than the 415!

The 044 is a monster pump, requires lots of power and is noisy, I run one in tank on my track car so noise isn't an issue.

Remember the 044 is a much older pump / design then the newer 450 unit, check out some flow charts comparing them and see which best fits your needs

Indeed, but the 044 is notoriously reliable and meant to be rock solid at higher pressure when the other pumps can tail off sooner (from the research I've done). But then I have to balance that against the noise! Decisions...

Do people think it is important to dual feed the rail for this power goal? Has anyone else on here run the stock rail with a good FPR and suitable injectors with this hp goal?

I know it will happily do it if I modify it as a dual feed just checking whats needed cheers

Indeed, but the 044 is notoriously reliable and meant to be rock solid at higher pressure when the other pumps can tail off sooner (from the research I've done). But then I have to balance that against the noise! Decisions...

Do people think it is important to dual feed the rail for this power goal? Has anyone else on here run the stock rail with a good FPR and suitable injectors with this hp goal?

I know it will happily do it if I modify it as a dual feed just checking whats needed cheers

044 is reliable but not designed for in tank.

Use a walbro 450 or 485, on stock line it will do high 600s

If you change the fuel feed and filter you can do 700hp just fine

Thanks for the advice Lee. Gone with the Walbro 450. Do you mean replace the fuel filter with a stocker and an AN6 to the rail? Do you guys sell a kit ?

My friend has made 700bhp with a single 450 Walbro and stock lines up to the filter, the fuel system wasnt maxed out on that pull put it was on a stock engine and stock cams so it didnt make any more power. Past that an aftermarket filter and twin AN6 lines to an after market rail. This was done on E85 which requires 30-40% more flow than regular fuel. So the stock lines and an 450 pump are good for almost 1000bhp on regular fuel.

My friend has made 700bhp with a single 450 Walbro and stock lines up to the filter, the fuel system wasnt maxed out on that pull put it was on a stock engine and stock cams so it didnt make any more power. Past that an aftermarket filter and twin AN6 lines to an after market rail. This was done on E85 which requires 30-40% more flow than regular fuel. So the stock lines and an 450 pump are good for almost 1000bhp on regular fuel.

I struggle to believe that, I can't see how you think it's possible to make 1000bhp on stock fuel lines and a Walbro 450. A single Walbro 450 is rated at 800bhp and that's with bigger fuel lines. As discussed before you'd struggle to make over 700bhp on a Walbro 450 with stock lines from the tank to filter. Think dads car made 660bhp on a Walbro 450 with stock lines from tank to filter.

Unless I'm getting what you said wrong.

I was at the dyno to witness it and I know what's inside the car as I help build it. It made 673bhp on Dyno Dynamics on shoot out mode on E85 on stock US/Euro spec cams on a 71mm turbo, 2 bar of boost. It later made 699hp on another dyno in a colder day.

3 bar base fuel pressure, 2000cc injectors, power line straight from the battery, so 13.5+ volts.

Also my friend made 890hp on a fuel system that was single AN6, this was also on E85. After that the fuel pressure dropped because of the small line.

So believe what you belive

Thanks Krister for the info!

I will soon find out! Going to replace from the filter to rail with AN braided and add FPR and bypass pulsation damper with braided. Will see what she does and post up.

Stock lines and a single 450 fuel pump for 1000bhp

Seriously?

Stock lines and a single 450 fuel pump for 1000bhp

 

Seriously?

Exactly my thinking, I'm still calling BS!

I think 1000bhp is pushing it but 850-900bhp should be fine. Remember that with my friends car there was an after market filter.

If you know the size of the oem line, it would be possible to calculate how much fuel it would flow theoreticly.

Anyone know how many meters of an6/an8 hose do we need for fuel lines from fuel tank to fuel rail, and return from fuel rail to fuel tank? Is an6 hose ok for fuel feed and for return or an8 is better?