Sharpie Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 In general - If running rich.... 1, This is not a bad thing other than zapping some of the power ? (If you run leaner then you can have more power but, have to keep within safety margins still) 2, Are there are any long term affects of this and ANY side affects that should be considered…..? (Build up of deposits etc...) 3, Some of the fuel is used as a coolant right ? My car is fine but, I was just thinking about this in general... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 It would cool combustion a little which in turn would reduce emissions. You will use more petrol. I'm not sure if it saps power though. Its certainly better than running lean, and I can't think of any detremental effects. Sorry I wasn't more of a help, sure somebody will comment soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 OK, slight edit to the first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelightning Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Too rich = bore wash over time. (Threat of bore wash when rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afennell Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 what would you do if a standard tt car was running very rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Running rich when under full boost helps, to a point, by cooling the combustion chamber. This far from reduces emissions though You lose potential power but gain a lot of safety. Running extremely rich, afr's under 10:1, you lose a *lot* of power and start to feel it in how the car runs. At this point you start to get bore wash and worse of all, petrol contamination of the engine oil - this causes increased wear everywhere the oil goes as the oil is, well, buggered Running rich when not on boost is daft, it lowers mpg ( ) and increases emissions. Deposit buildup is also a factor, as well as soiling the spark plugs. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W2 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Originally posted by Ian C Running rich when under full boost helps, to a point, by cooling the combustion chamber. This far from reduces emissions though -Ian It reduces some emissions for sure. Air is comprised of approximately 68% Nitrogen. It gets a little complicated about how it converts to Nitrogen Oxide (and when) but basically it does convert to NOx. This is an emission and by-product of combustion. It is also very harmful to the atmosphere and is minimised in car engines along with CO and SOx where ever possible. By cooling the thermal reaction caused by the ignition of the petrol/air mixture you reduce the conversion of Nitrogen to NOx, and hence the total amount of Nox produced. This does have knock on effects with other chemcal reactions but is known to place. What you may get as a result is a slight increase in CO which is also undesireable, but you cant have it all! I think they frown on CO more than NOx also NOx will have a more detremental long term effect. It's typical of the government to ignore that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelightning Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 So there you have it - its a balance. Best to have close to 14.7:1 at idle, with more rich ratios closer to boost - with max richness during boost when all that air is gushing in. Thats why these guys get paid to map Supras - its a fragile art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 Thanks All Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeT Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 my car runs very rich under boost. ive just bought a hks vpc/gcc combo to try and lean it out a bit at WOT and to remove the restrictive MAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 Originally posted by leett ive just bought a hks vpc/gcc combo am I right in saying that those are second hand Lee or can you still get them new ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Copied from another forum, how do these AFR look :- AFR 12,5 gives best power, that is why I was thinking about that number From other point of view faster turbo spool gives AFR about 13 if I am not mistaken Right now my street map is set like: 0 Bar of boost AFR 14,7 0,5 Bar of boost 13 1 Bar of boost 12 1,5 Bar of boost 11,7 2,0 Bar of boost 11,7 my race map is set like that: 0 Bar of boost AFR 12,7 0,5 Bar of boost 12,3 1 Bar of boost 12 1,5 Bar of boost 11,7 2,0 Bar of boost 11,7 They look ok to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 I'm more like: 0 to 0.5bar = ramping from 14 through 13 towards 12 0.9bar = 11.4 to 11.7 1.2bar = 10.8 to 11.2 I was going to trim the fuelling back for 1.2bar but then I recalled that it runs rich as stock to cool the innards down, so I figured at twice the power output it can have the same effect thanks It's only a street car after all. 2 bar of boost? madness Not entirely sure why you'd richen up 0bar for a race fuel map? AFRs of 12.5 are great for a bit more power but don't leave a lot of headroom for say a cold day or a crap bit of fuel or some other random factor. Probably far more do-able and safer to run that with your standalone than my piggyback though One day I might dyno mine running an AFR of 10.8, 11.7, and 12.5, see exactly how much wellie is lost. Er, re-reading your post Wez, I'm not sure if those are *your* figures or not -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Nope not mine but close, i am running richer above 0.6bar at the moment as I still need to tune out some fuel when i get time. These were what I was going to aim for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Originally posted by Steve W2 It reduces some emissions for sure. Air is comprised of approximately 68% Nitrogen. It gets a little complicated about how it converts to Nitrogen Oxide (and when) but basically it does convert to NOx. This is an emission and by-product of combustion. It is also very harmful to the atmosphere and is minimised in car engines along with CO and SOx where ever possible. By cooling the thermal reaction caused by the ignition of the petrol/air mixture you reduce the conversion of Nitrogen to NOx, and hence the total amount of Nox produced. This does have knock on effects with other chemcal reactions but is known to place. What you may get as a result is a slight increase in CO which is also undesireable, but you cant have it all! I think they frown on CO more than NOx also NOx will have a more detremental long term effect. It's typical of the government to ignore that fact. Ah, well, I thought you meant it reduced emissions as a whole The Co2 would go mad, I didn't realise it cut down on other nastier-but-not-taxable ones. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 I thouht that NOx emissions were cause by a fast, hot combutsion process? If that is true then woudn't a cooler burn reduce NOx? NOx and HC emissions tend to be a trade-off. This is what EGR is there to control. I'm no calibration engineer but I would have thought that a slow, cool, rich burn would reduce NOx and increase HC and a fast, hot, lean burn would increase NOx and reduce HC. By the way, if you are running so rich that you are getting bore wash, then you are running way, way too rich. Do people really go this far just to keep the EGTs down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 I hope not Running rich, i.e. 11.0afr or thereabouts is to take heat out of the combustion chamber components AFAIK. EGTs are more of a byproduct of having a good AFR. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Originally posted by Ian C One day I might dyno mine running an AFR of 10.8, 11.7, and 12.5, see exactly how much wellie is lost. I lost 15 hp going from ~12.2 to ~11.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Righto That's sold 11.5 to me I can live without an extra 15bhp for chancing my engine's ass each time I boot it. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 That's what I thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Matt can you bring my injection test kit with you today , remember pub at 4 !!! Dude:flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 And I'll bring your kinky leather boots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby_doo_do Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Here's one for you then...How can you tell if your cars running rich or not ? Spark plugs maybe ? I'm taking mine out today to check them, whilst my brother in law and cousin take out the engine on a gsxr.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 Here is what CW says on reading your plugs and answers your question: Plug reading is a dying art and much misunderstood. But the important thing here is a plug read MUST be taken like this. Full throttle, maintained for say 5 seconds, kill the engine immediately, coast to a halt in neutral. Read the plugs. Caveats: ANY period of idling makes a reading meaningless, unleaded fuel makes plug reading 10 times more difficult to meaningless. The lead in the old "proper" fuels were what made the colour changes as much as anything. Honest answer is reading plugs on road cars run on unleaded is a waste of time unless it's so rich as to be belching blacks smoke or so weak as to be melting a plug. Unleaded fuels need mixture checked with wide band Lambda sensor and readout to be frank. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeT Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Originally posted by Peter Sharp am I right in saying that those are second hand Lee or can you still get them new ? yes second hand, but i'll still be able to use them to control my impending single as well. the hks vpc is indeed obsolete now although different chipsare still available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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