JohnA Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 Is your WI just injecting pre-turbo, or have you got another injection point as well? pre but these figures don't go that far, they are about off-boost charge temps. We'll get into on-boost temps later I've recently installed a WI in my rex (diff motor I know, but still runs very hot, especially with tiny stock intercooler) are you talking about that pitiful thing sitting on top of the engine? That's a whole different kettle of fish then. In your case, one *would* expect air to be pre-heated from the soaked intercooler once you slow down. ..I think if your just injecting pre-turbo, you will have improved the efficiency of the turbos (someone went into the dynamics of it once and said how it can shift it from an abiatic reaction to a near isothermal one), that would have been me but the effect of charge temps with SMIC still in place will be limited since the cooled air will be heated up again, as all the water spray would have been atomised in the turbos. It doesn't work like that though. I explain a bit more on my website, on the WI page. In any case, this thread is about off-boost temps, heating by the compressors is negligible. If you were to run another injector somewhere along the inlet tract I reckon that would have a much more noticeable effect on charge temps, certainly did with mine. I had been running such a setup on my previous car. Charge temps were near-ambient either off-boost either on-boost. The Supra is a challenge though, looks like someone in Toyota needs a slap. I have been told multi-point water injection is the way to go, That is to ensure each cylinder gets the same amount of water spray. Quite different use, only needed when operating well within DetLand, which would be impossible without W.I. I need to do what you've done now and set-up pre-compressor injection. You have to remember that this is experimental, there is no know-how to speak of, many of the references you'll find might have even originated from myself, one way or another. Not easy to cross-reference things. I've got lots of third-party references and links on my W.I. pages, better go through those as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 http://www.max-boost.co.uk/stuff/ic_pipe_wrapped.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 Right, got it out for a spin with the setup above. No undertray before, none after. Same journey, in similar conditions, so the results should be comparable enough. The charge temps started rising a couple of minutes later this time, and the rate of increase (from ambient) was slower. The final 'equilibrium' point was ambient+25C which is 5-6C lower than before. After shutdown in the garage, the maximum recorded temp was ambient+40C, same as every other time. But this is with the engine off and the car stationary, so the heatsoak measure is down to the heat radiated and convected from everything else in the bay, so that was expected. I would imagine that this thermal protection makes a bigger difference if the undertray is in place, but unfortunately I didn't take any temp measurements with the undertray fitted, so I can't tell for sure. ....that's it then. 5-6C lower is 1 ~ 1.5% more power. Is it worth it? Maybe --- if you already have the undertay off and have the stuff laying about, all it takes is some time with a Stanley knife and a few cable ties. Every little helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 do you know that the undertray is an integral part of the cooling system? it creates the necessary low pressure behind the rad for it to function correctly. its removal does not really help reduce underbonnet temps. i've just finished my FMIC ducting and at idle the draw through the FMIC is incredible, without any ducting there was none whatsover. can you still get the undertray on with that insulation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 do you know that the undertray is an integral part of the cooling system? yes of course . its removal does not really help reduce underbonnet temps. I never said it did. Mine is out because it killed itself on the M25. The replacement will go on back soon, I'm waiting for mr "T" to bring some of the plastic clips that hold it on the sides. i've just finished my FMIC ducting and at idle the draw through the FMIC is incredible, without any ducting there was none whatsover. It would be intersting to see the ducting, all FMICs I've seen on supras are a non-starter (for me) can you still get the undertray on with that insulation? Yep, I've tried it just in case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 yes of course ok, sorry for asking I never said it did. i never said you said it did It would be intersting to see the ducting, all FMICs I've seen on supras are a non-starter (for me) yeah, im really impressed, it's worked a lot better than i imagined. at idle it sucked in a passing daddy-longlegs yesterday Yep, I've tried it just in case it's been a while since i last saw that pipe, i thought i could remember it being very close to the undertray and the insulation looks quite thick. nice that it does something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Hey Eyefi, What did you use for the ducting? Sounds like you've done a good job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 ok, sorry for asking Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, FFS, everyone's so touchy on this board it's been a while since i last saw that pipe, i thought i could remember it being very close to the undertray and the insulation looks quite thick. nice that it does something. It's close, but the insulation is only a few millimetres thick (and compressible too, carpet thermal underlay) PS Pressing some of the buttons here may help reduce stress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Hey Eyefi, What did you use for the ducting? Sounds like you've done a good job 1 used some sheet ali from B&Q (they had a load in the sale £3 a sheet) a load of creasing and some pop rivets and some automotive sealant. i did have some really complicated side pieces to go in to create a complete seal but due to time limitations and a loosing of temper i decided calmly to miss these off and i don't think i'll go back and bother adding them at a later date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, FFS, everyone's so touchy on this board it's ok, i'll get over it, don't worry about me. i pitched it at the returned "touchyness", maybe one day we could get along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Pop rivets? Into the FMIC? Bending the ali...just by hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 it's ok, i'll get over it, don't worry about me. i pitched it at the returned "touchyness", maybe one day we could get along Internet forums can be very deceptive when you try to imagine someone in the flesh. Lots of room for misunderstanding when it comes to 'colour' or 'mood' as well. http://www.max-boost.co.uk/stuff/idog.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Pop rivets? Into the FMIC? Bending the ali...just by hand? no , it attaches to the fmic by pressure and sealant. the ali bent easily with a guide and score. i'll maybe get some time tonight to bung some pics up in another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Internet forums can be very deceptive when you try to imagine someone in the flesh. true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 ....and "woof" was the right answer!.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 here is a log of air temp and speed. log starts about 10 mins in (90degc water) and lasts for 20 mins ambient 21degc the y axis is mph and the temp is y/10 degc. no cold air box fitted yet no turbo blanket wrapped downpipe my air temp only gets hot at idle (see end of graph), temp doesn't shift (up) under boost. not quite the same data as you observed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Eyefi - what software is that your using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 I can't make sense of any of the axis. If you mean that your temps hover between 25C and 40C on a 21C day, then it's nothing like what I see on mine (but it is roughly what I'd expect to see!) 10 minutes after startup, I can't see less than ambient+30C while driving off-boost. The weird thing is that I can't see any *increase* in charge temps when driving on-boost either, it behaves like a large n/a engine. Puzzling. It could be related to part of the 'fundamental flaw' I suspect there is in the design. (Fuelling under boost could be another part, the grossly rich conditions over 6psi might be aimed towards cooling the cats perhaps) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 John, Dont forget Eyefi is running a single, he probably (as im not 100% sure) is running some form of fuel control and its mapped so as not to go grossly rich over 6psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 John, Dont forget Eyefi is running a single, he probably (as im not 100% sure) is running some form of fuel control and its mapped so as not to go grossly rich over 6psi. The single has the potential to run the whole engine bay cooler ---- a lot less hot surfaces radiating heat all over the place, more free space in the bay for air to circulate properly. Also I'm not running stock-rich anymore, I've had to pull up to 30% (FFS) from parts of the rev range to bring AFRs down to human levels. Still, it makes no difference in off-boost running of the engine, those are fuelling settings at high throttle openings (70% upwards) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I can't make sense of any of the axis. If you mean that your temps hover between 25C and 40C on a 21C day, then it's nothing like what I see on mine (but it is roughly what I'd expect to see!) you have interpreted the axis correctly. no over fueling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Eyefi - what software is that your using? it's called datalogit, written by some new zealanders. it transforms the way you can use the apex powerFC. very good bit of software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 Went out today with a passenger. Off-boost most of the time. 10minutes later it was ambient+40C, when I switched off in the garage ambient+50C (sensor goes out of range over 70C) So much for the intercooler hose wrapping bollox... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScuttleRX Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Sorry matey, didnt notice you were talking bout off boost temps Have been interested in pre-turbo injection for a while, most of the things ive read about it are all theorys rather than actual projects. How are you finding it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 something of relevance i've just remembered, i don't have any throttle warming (coolant conection) or any iscv warming (coolant connection again). probably worth quite a few degrees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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