chris_bramley Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 awesome! thanks Paul! Know anyone I can get it off? I may as well do the lot whilst it's out. The garage next door said also make sure I skim the head, they do it for £75 including next day return, pressure testing and laser checking... Which leads me to the all important quesiton of how much do I skim? what's the best amount to give more power without buiggering the engine too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Some garages always recommend skimming the head. More money for them. I'd like to see them putting back the metal if it turns out that the head didn't need skimming though (you have to use off-standard thicker gaskets from then onwards to make up for the missing metal) Proper garages *check* the surfaces for trueness and THEN decide if/how much skimming is needed. They don't do it automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlam Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Some garages always recommend skimming the head. More money for them. I'd like to see them putting back the metal if it turns out that the head didn't need skimming though (you have to use off-standard thicker gaskets from then onwards to make up for the missing metal) Proper garages *check* the surfaces for trueness and THEN decide if/how much skimming is needed. They don't do it automatically. John Waited a long time for someone to say that cheers mate . Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 yeah, they make it sound like skimming is part of a 'cleaning up' process, when in fact it is a non-reversible operation which is likely to distort the shape of your combustion chambers and force you to use custom-made head gaskets from then onwards (which they may conveniently provide by the way) And if those gaskets tend to blow often (because they need different torque values, have different elasticity to the OEM ones, whatever...) then don't worry ---- they'll be doing the work for you, now that they 'know' your car. wink wink nudge nudge, eh, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bramley Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 Ah, difference is they don't make any money from it. I know the guy who owns it and he's only recommended skimming because the overheat could well have warped it and he suggested it's best to do a low skim to make sure it's fine. His words were "why risk it" and I can't ask him to do all manner of checks n stuff for me cos he won't charge and he's busy as all hell. Since he'll get it done cost price for me he makes nothing from it, so I doubt he's got anything but my best interests at heart on this one. Also, ppl have recommended skimming and keeping a standard gasket to change the compression ratio to give more power - is this not true? If done properly (ie not over the top) isn't that good? He said it's great as long as you don't take too much off. And let me repeat my original question! Who knows where to get this £170 gasket set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 ...he's only recommended skimming because the overheat could well have warped it and he suggested it's best to do a low skim to make sure it's fine. Would you go for radiation treatment because you think that you *might* have cancer? I wouldn't. I'd like to verify the existence and extent of warpage before skimming. Also, ppl have recommended skimming and keeping a standard gasket to change the compression ratio to give more power - is this not true? it is true. "ppl" recommend various things all over the internet. Other "ppl" act on those recommendations. That's how ppl are --- human nature If done properly (ie not over the top) isn't that good? He said it's great as long as you don't take too much off. Old timers have a saying: measure twice, cut once This fellow of yours, good natured and all, recommends the opposite, doesn't he? Ask him to tell you what your final compression ratio will be after half a millimetre of skimming. If he cannot calculate that, I'd re-evaluate the worth of his 'free' advice. Chances are that he doesn't even know what the stock CR for your supra is. Hey, it's your car and it's a free country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bramley Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 Would you go for radiation treatment because you think that you *might* have cancer? I wouldn't. I'd like to verify the existence and extent of warpage before skimming. No - but the extent of the overheat suggests there could well be, as a lot of ppl on here have also said it's possible it warped. If i can get time from him to check it I'll get it done. it is true. "ppl" recommend various things all over the internet. Other "ppl" act on those recommendations. That's how ppl are --- human nature Well, yes - our entire society is based on acting on information gleaned from past years and other people. What I am asking is if this advice is valid, and if not why not - not if ppl are reliable as a whole. come are, zsome aren't - we know this already. Details on the pros and cons would be more useful to me. Old timers have a saying: measure twice, cut once This fellow of yours, good natured and all, recommends the opposite, doesn't he? Ask him to tell you what your final compression ratio will be after half a millimetre of skimming. If he cannot calculate that, I'd re-evaluate the worth of his 'free' advice. Chances are that he doesn't even know what the stock CR for your supra is. I wouldn't say he's going to opposite way, but on what he's seen of the car he said it's something to think about getting done. I can impose on him and try and get him to check the head, I understand that is a good idea, but he said most of the cars that have had what mine had have needed a slight skim. He specialises in mercs and beamers so chances are you're right - he likely doesn't know supra details off the top of his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Different designs may react to overheating in different ways. It could be that Mercs warp the cyl heads every time their coolant goes over 120C (or whatever) This doesn't necessarily mean that the Toyota head will do the same. It might have different thermal capacity, different water channels, different weak links. In any case, if a cyl head such as this NEEDS skimming due to warpage, you many want to consider having it 100% stripped and rebuilt. How do you know that after such an overheating experience all valve guides are still nice and true? (just one example, but you get the picture) Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bramley Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 I haven't got the money to do all this, it's hard enough to get the bare minimum done! I'm told the likelihodd is if anything is wapred it will be the head surrounding the gasket and in theory the most hopefully that would be needed would be a skim. Regardless of all this, I'm going to bump the question again: Who knows where I can get the £170 gasket kit from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlam Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 John Would you go for radiation treatment because you think that you *might* have cancer? LMAO nice one mate. I have taken heads off cars and not needed them skimmed even though they have over heated, and others i have had to have skimmed. Like John says, have it checked to see IF it needs skimmed. The problem there is that you hope they are gonna be honest,and say NO, IF it dont need it done . Most places jump on the bandwagon when you say you have overheated the engine,nearly always the first thing they say is..Oh it will deff need skimmed . Andy PS Chris sorry mate dont know where you could get the kit for that price but i'm sure there are a few on here who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Regardless of all this, I'm going to bump the question again: Who knows where I can get the £170 gasket kit from? I'd probably try toyota, seeing as it's their kit. Shouldn't be more than a couple of days turnaround. You could also ask Envy as they sell Toyota parts, and sometimes (not all the time) can give you a discount on the toyota price. So you need to check both. Also it takes a matter of minutes to check a cylinder head for flatness. Yoy NEED to do this to know if the head does need skimming. It's not something that you can take for granted, and hey the plus side is it could save you £75! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 I haven't got the money to do all this, it's hard enough to get the bare minimum done! I'm told the likelihodd is if anything is wapred it will be the head surrounding the gasket and in theory the most hopefully that would be needed would be a skim. Regardless of all this, I'm going to bump the question again: Who knows where I can get the £170 gasket kit from? Chris i'll give you my experience, i took my cylinder head off to do the valve stem seals and took the head to work to check for any warpage the head was fine, however there were areas of the head where the head gasket had been for the past 12 years that were'nt great particularly between the cylinders where there is only about 10mm of metal the head definately needed a clean up to get rid of this scoring and slight errosion in places, ally heads are known to be prone to warping when overheating so you defo need it checking tell your man you want it checking and if any machining is required the bare minimum but i'me sure they will know this anyway, also you want a very smooth finish for the laminated gasket allready discussed in this thread, the optimum amount to remove from the head on a turbo car is the minimum as turbo cars run low compression to allow boost without det, the gasket set price i quoted is direct from any Toyota garage my local garage are sound and have no problem with it being an import if you buy from a trader they will have just bought it from Toyota so you may as well cut out the middle man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bramley Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 Chris i'll give you my experience, i took my cylinder head off to do the valve stem seals and took the head to work to check for any warpage the head was fine, however there were areas of the head where the head gasket had been for the past 12 years that were'nt great particularly between the cylinders where there is only about 10mm of metal the head definately needed a clean up to get rid of this scoring and slight errosion in places, ally heads are known to be prone to warping when overheating so you defo need it checking tell your man you want it checking and if any machining is required the bare minimum but i'me sure they will know this anyway, also you want a very smooth finish for the laminated gasket allready discussed in this thread, the optimum amount to remove from the head on a turbo car is the minimum as turbo cars run low compression to allow boost without det, the gasket set price i quoted is direct from any Toyota garage my local garage are sound and have no problem with it being an import if you buy from a trader they will have just bought it from Toyota so you may as well cut out the middle man Brilliant, thanks Paul. My mechanic mate has also advised skimming it as low as poss as it's 11 years old and over 50,000 miles - and it will keep the compression low to do it the least. He said you only need 1/1000 of an inch off to smooth it and ensure it's fine again and it's worth getting done, and that little won't affect the engine or the need to use another gasket width. I'll try and source the kit asap, and the skim would be next day return. I'll get the garage next door to check it once it's off but I think it's probably worth smoothing it back down with the smallest possible skim, from what I've heard and been told. Envy may do it? I think I'll check em out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Get someone you trust to measure it with a micrometer before you send it off, I'd lay money they take more than a thou off.if its warped it will be warped far more than that, but will need skimming. If its corroded again it will take more than a thou. If it only needs a thou then it doesnt need skimming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bramley Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 Good call whatever happens I'm getting it checked first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 A thou, yeah right.... The tolerance of their equipment is probably more than a thou... I've seen it time and again .... people being told to have it skimmed 'juuuuuust a bit' and then all sorts of problems raise their ugly heads, head comes out again and nobody can tell for sure how much they had taken out. I've even seen millimetres mixed up with thous, in a pathetic attempt of old-timers to appear metric-enabled! ....then you get these posts where people ask for the 'std' height of the cyl head, you know, sealing-surface-to-sealing-surface. As if many people can measure this with any degree of accuracy in their sheds... /rant over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlam Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 If it only needs a thou then it doesnt need skimming spot on 1/1000 total waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul mac Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 A thou, yeah right.... The tolerance of their equipment is probably more than a thou... I've seen it time and again .... people being told to have it skimmed 'juuuuuust a bit' and then all sorts of problems raise their ugly heads, head comes out again and nobody can tell for sure how much they had taken out. I've even seen millimetres mixed up with thous, in a pathetic attempt of old-timers to appear metric-enabled! ....then you get these posts where people ask for the 'std' height of the cyl head, you know, sealing-surface-to-sealing-surface. As if many people can measure this with any degree of accuracy in their sheds... /rant over oh no take cover negative nellys back, i really dont think Chris is going to have any problems unless they take 1/2" off the head, mine got a tram line rough shit job done on it by idiots then got skimmed again by ppl who knew what they were doing so god knows how much was taken off the head in the end, it still made 510 rwhp at 1.4 bar with no det Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 okie dokie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Ladies and gentleman may I introduce to you...... Maximum head warp specification from Toyota service manual As you'll see you need only need skim the head if it is more than 0.1mm (approx 0.004") I'll repeat what John is saying (because he's right :wink: ) measure it. If it's out of tolerance then get it skimmed. You said money was tight, so save yourself the monry if it doesn't need skimming. Actually if your keen to spend the £75, I'll send you my paypal address Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 ...Actually if your keen to spend the £75, I'll send you my paypal address Oi, I saw him first, my swiss account is salivating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bramley Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 wallets back in pants gents, I'm only interested in furthering the car's recovery I'll see how it checks out. The reason my mate suggested getting it skimmed was it will clean the fitting up and if it doesn't need much doing it won't affect the compression. I'm only going on what I know from all you guys and ppl who know more... and not everyone says the same thing! Paul mac seems to think it's viable..... cue flame war hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlam Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Emm Normally you would just give it a rub with some wet and dry to clean it up, if thats all it needs. And if you dont want to send the money to John you could send it to me...have you heard the price of pertrol is rising . Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 ...And if you dont want to send the money to John you could send it to me...have you heard the price of pertrol is rising . I see there's a queue for the charitable event. How touching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnK Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Ill take my cut of that £75 too To check your head all you need is a surface table (dead flat) and some feeler gauges. It will take 2 mins to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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