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Standing start- 450 bhp auto "v" five speed manual?


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Hi Guys, So if you have the two cars side by side and the manual box has the OEM standard axle ratio, then which one would reach the 60MPH the fastest?

I am asking this question as i have the five speed manual box and your clutch control and quality of changing gear from first to second gear must play a meaningful part?

 

For a recent example, i got behind an Audi TT, the suped up job with the rear spoiler, joining the M/way, i changed up too soon from first to second, and he drew away a little, i then got the rush of power and gradually pulled passed him, we then both had to slow down for a build up of traffic.

My brother's TT was auto with the "kick down", and from memory, it was very quick on standing starts, OK he had another 100 BHP, but the manual has to be a more difficult process to keep in the power band etc. What do you think? Herbie.

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The auto for 2 reasons.

 

1. They're quicker

2. The 5 speed box will have likely churned it's insides to mush if the car hooks and doesn't wheespin.

 

I wouldn't say you're running 450hp either mate, probably closer to 350hp if it hasn't been mapped after the headgasket change.

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Bottom line is the auto, in the dry at least, can be planted (in a straight line) and 99% of the time it will not wheel spin and this is repeatable every time and no one can extract more from it (perhaps some power braking), it has no "off day" or adrenaline/clumsy factor. Manuals when you are trying for the max you nearly always get too much wheel spin pulling away and at every gear change if you have a powerful enough car.

 

Herbie with yours if you changed the tyres/diff etc so they gripped +95% then I think your box would explode. The one downside (if it even is one) with manuals is the getaway and 1st/2nd change, it's not that you can't get a good them right but that it's really hard to get be consistent and you can get them horribly wrong!

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Bottom line is the auto, in the dry at least, can be planted (in a straight line) and 99% of the time it will not wheel spin and this is repeatable every time and no one can extract more from it (perhaps some power braking), it has no "off day" or adrenaline/clumsy factor. Manuals when you are trying for the max you nearly always get too much wheel spin pulling away and at every gear change if you have a powerful enough car.

 

Herbie with yours if you changed the tyres/diff etc so they gripped +95% then I think your box would explode. The one downside (if it even is one) with manuals is the getaway and 1st/2nd change, it's not that you can't get a good them right but that it's really hard to get be consistent and you can get them horribly wrong!

 

Hi Scooter, I think you explained the situation quite well. I actually like driving, and the key part is changing gear, into bends and powering out etc, the odd wheel spin leaving the pub can be fun as well. My other cars are auto and with so much congestion and road works etc, a manual would be out of the question, especially if you had a hard sports clutch. Herbie.

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if you changed the tyres/diff etc so they gripped +95% then, I think your box would explode.

 

:D

 

Just for the record I also believe the auto would make a better job of it, with much less hassle.

 

That's coming from someone who drives like a grandad. ie. me ;)

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and the key part is changing gear, into bends and powering out etc,

 

That's the right way to also drive an auto supra, and exactly how I drive mine. There's no difference from a manual Supra except from the number of gears, both can be driven manually, it's just auto owners usually leave it in D, which is fine if you are just cruising, but properly using manual mode is where the car and box really comes into its own.

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That's the right way to also drive an auto supra, and exactly how I drive mine. There's no difference from a manual Supra except from the number of gears, both can be driven manually, it's just auto owners usually leave it in D, which is fine if you are just cruising, but properly using manual mode is where the car and box really comes into its own.

 

For many, "manual mode", is "mystery mode"!

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Off the line the auto box car will 9/10 always be faster, once you`re out of 1st then there`s not alot too compare, i`m talking straight line here btw, we all know which is quicker/better/more fun on twisties.

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That's the right way to also drive an auto supra, and exactly how I drive mine. There's no difference from a manual Supra except from the number of gears, both can be driven manually, it's just auto owners usually leave it in D, which is fine if you are just cruising, but properly using manual mode is where the car and box really comes into its own.

 

Question, when using the manual mode. When you come to a junction do you put it into first or just pull away in second and then change to third? I find it annoying having to push the button in to engage first gear!

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I find I don't use manual mode much, just shift to 2 where necessary and use the over drive button to hold 3rd if I want. Once you are rolling 1st doesn't really come into the equation and if you aren't in manual mode the box will then shift between 1st and 2nd as required if the stick is in the '2' position.

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Question, when using the manual mode. When you come to a junction do you put it into first or just pull away in second and then change to third? I find it annoying having to push the button in to engage first gear!

 

When using manual mode, I always put it into first, but I use flappy paddles, but even before paddles I still would, it's not exactly a big deal to press a button mate!?! lol

 

I only really use manual mode mode when I'm kicking it's head in, other than that I'm in D and just using the paddles to change to 2 or 3 when needed, the rest of the time I'm just cruising and relaxing and letting the autobox do the work for me, best of both worlds :)

 

I find I don't use manual mode much, just shift to 2 where necessary and use the over drive button to hold 3rd if I want. Once you are rolling 1st doesn't really come into the equation and if you aren't in manual mode the box will then shift between 1st and 2nd as required if the stick is in the '2' position.

 

I disagree, but I do drive the car hard when I want to have fun, and 1st gear makes the car an animal and makes all the difference, and being as it's such a long gear you can use it a hell of a lot, like when entering and exiting islands etc...

 

Also the car wont use 2nd gear if just in D when setting off from say traffic lights, I've never seen it happen anyway.

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I've never driven or been in an auto (or any other supra other than my own for that matter) so I can't really comment at all.

 

The "more control" arguement that manual guys put forward doesn't really stand up well when auto guys can change gears when they want to as well

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I've been in both, auto and manual. Been in Na's, single turbo's.

 

But doesn't matter which you've been in, which you support.

 

Auto is faster. It's just a fact.

 

You only need look at a drag racing events listing to see auto cars are faster. Grannas racing promoting the fastest stick shift also goes to show how manuals are behind autos. Though incredibly impressive, auto's run faster times.

 

We're talking about technology vs human ability here. The only downside to the Supra mkiv is it's four gear range, not utilising the power band enough. But even then, it's going to be better than a bad driver who can't control the gear lever well enough.

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I've never driven or been in an auto (or any other supra other than my own for that matter) so I can't really comment at all.

 

The "more control" arguement that manual guys put forward doesn't really stand up well when auto guys can change gears when they want to as well

 

Manuals do provide more control, the clutch gives you ultimate control of the power to the wheels at any point, you won't for instance see a drifter using an auto (I don't think?). So a manual let's you do an on the spot/short radius 180, you can help settle/unsettle the car if you are skilled and at 9-10 10ths. So it's more involving and therefore more fun to many, but I love the auto, for it's age, and ignoring the few limitations of any auto, it's a a great box.

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So after 23 years of owning a MK4 Supra this thread is saying that when my brother and i bought our cars new, it should have been two auto's! ?, so why did Toyota/Lexus, make the 5 speed manual? and then the six speed manual?

Anyway, i like the way i choose to set off from a standing start, i don't want the car to do it for me, this is a very fast sports car, that wants to be driven, and the way i have to drive it is why i bought it, if i bought a piano i want to show my skill and how i put it down, not a piano that plays itself.

My Merc AMG Estate puts out circa 275 BHP, 5 speed auto box, lovely thing to drive and a god send in traffic jams, sort of drives its'self, when you use the "kick down" it is really impressive, but it is a family bus that will carry six adults, i just cannot imagine it with a manual gear box, my Supra has the opposite effect with me, i also have no time for front wheel drive cars, rear drive is my choice and of course four wheel drive.

Some of you have said they see their Supra as a luxury comfy cruiser and i can now see where the auto box fits in with that, so it is everyone to their own, at the end of the day both drives are very good, and these cars were well designed and well ahead of their time. Herbie.

Edited by herbiemercman (see edit history)
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The Supra was designed as a tourer.

 

You seem ranting more than discussing there. If you and your brother intended to purchase the fastest option for that model then yes, you bought the wrong one. But you also bought an NA so engagement and affordability were the main factors.

 

They made manuals for same reason they made leather seats. Preference of buyers.

 

An auto box is faster than a manual. That's a known fact. Various OEMs even list auto variants with a lower 0 to 60 typically, for a range of car types sizes and shapes. I mean we arent breaking new ground with this information.

 

A manual is just more engaging for the driver.

 

You asked if a self playing piano was faster than someone sat in front of it.

 

Not, does the self playing piano feel nicer to listen too.

 

You cant create a discussion on standing start speed and use your own preference of not wanting the car to 'do it for you' as support for the manual being faster lol! I prefer manuals also. But I know shifting be it more fun, is inefficient done by a human not a machine.

 

As per your title. From a standing start, or am I missing something lol?

Edited by Noz (see edit history)
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The Supra was designed as a tourer.

 

You seem ranting more than discussing there. If you and your brother intended to purchase the fastest option for that model then yes, you bought the wrong one. But you also bought an NA so engagement and affordability were the main factors.

 

They made manuals for same reason they made leather seats. Preference of buyers.

 

An auto box is faster than a manual. That's a known fact. Various OEMs even list auto variants with a lower 0 to 60 typically, for a range of car types sizes and shapes. I mean we arent breaking new ground with this information.

 

A manual is just more engaging for the driver.

 

You asked if a self playing piano was faster than someone sat in front of it.

 

Not, does the self playing piano feel nicer to listen too.

 

You cant create a discussion on standing start speed and use your own preference of not wanting the car to 'do it for you' as support for the manual being faster lol! I prefer manuals also. But I know shifting be it more fun, is inefficient done by a human not a machine.

 

As per your title. From a standing start, or am I missing something lol?

 

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Well put sir.

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The Supra was designed as a tourer.

 

You seem ranting more than discussing there. If you and your brother intended to purchase the fastest option for that model then yes, you bought the wrong one. But you also bought an NA so engagement and affordability were the main factors.

 

They made manuals for same reason they made leather seats. Preference of buyers.

 

An auto box is faster than a manual. That's a known fact. Various OEMs even list auto variants with a lower 0 to 60 typically, for a range of car types sizes and shapes. I mean we arent breaking new ground with this information.

 

A manual is just more engaging for the driver.

 

You asked if a self playing piano was faster than someone sat in front of it.

 

Not, does the self playing piano feel nicer to listen too.

 

You cant create a discussion on standing start speed and use your own preference of not wanting the car to 'do it for you' as support for the manual being faster lol! I prefer manuals also. But I know shifting be it more fun, is inefficient done by a human not a machine.

 

As per your title. From a standing start, or am I missing something lol?

 

Hi Noz, Your on it and i enjoy your reasoning and the info., which you have from "hands on" experience. The cost was not an issue on the purchase spec, i just wanted the manual gear box, my knowledge of performance was even worse than it is currently, so all the performance info was irrelevant at the time.

 

Anyway Noz, I like the looks and performance of my car, it also has what money cannot buy, which is the memories it has for me, and i hope that will keep building, especially in the current circumstances. One thing i would love you doing for me, is trying to give your oinion on how much torque and BHP could i have lost from increasing the cylinder head gasket thickness from 0.6mm to 1.3mm? I may be suffering the "plasebo effect", but the current performance is as good as it has ever been. ? Finally for me, i would never class the Supra as a "Tourer", it is an insult to the breed, no one would class the E-Type as a "Tourer", i do not get it, and i never will. ! Herbie.

Edited by herbiemercman (see edit history)
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Hi Noz, Your on it and i enjoy your reasoning and the info., which you have from "hands on" experience. The cost was not an issue on the purchase spec, i just wanted the manual gear box, my knowledge of performance was even worse than it is currently, so all the performance info was irrelevant at the time.

 

Anyway Noz, I like the looks and performance of my car, it also has what money cannot buy, which is the memories it has for me, and i hope that will keep building, especially in the current circumstances. One thing i would love you doing for me, is trying to give your oinion on how much torque and BHP could i have lost from increasing the cylinder head gasket thickness from 0.6mm to 1.3mm? I may be suffering the "plasebo effect", but the current performance is as good as it has ever been. ? Herbie.

 

If cost was no issue, why didn't you go for the TT6 then?

 

Question is; do you think it's faster than a completely stock TT6?

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I have both a tt auto and a na5 converted to a 1jz R154 5speed and in all honesty I love them both but for two different reasons the auto is just effortless and the manual can be hard work at times but good fun on a blast

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