Brazil Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I am in need of your help again making a forward plan for the issues I am having. My car is at a new garage, its more local to me so I am able to check up on the progress easier and the people seem to be very honest and there is no waiting around for work to be done. Back ground: Car was put together with new forged engine built by Chris Wilson; Ryan Griffith 'Syvecs' loaded a run in base map which we were happy during this remote mapping session. Shortly after I took the car out of the shop the syvecs would cut the engine out due to low oil pressure, Ryan had a look at it and decreased the cut out limit which meant I could now drive it normally though when I accelerated more aggressively it would cut out. FYI: 3.5 bar oil pressure when cold - 2 bar when hot at idle. I than suspected it could be an issue with the oil pressure sensor located on the 'turbo side of block' 'Placed there because not using oil cooler for running new engine'. FYI: Today we took off the VVTI line to the head and placed a mechanical guage and we confirmed that the syvec sensor is reading the same. The problem appears to have got worst from I first started putting on the run in miles, since now at idle the engine when hot only shows just under 1 bar and at 4k rpm 2 bar. I have a leaking front crank seal, which is pretty bad but could this alone be the cause of this really low oil pressure? What should I do next? Could this be a result of faulty oil pump relief valve? Edited February 19, 2015 by Brazil (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTurtleshead Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I'd first cut open the oil filter and check the oil for particles... If you find anything suspicious then take the sump off and check for swarf etc... If you find some it's pretty obvious you have a major problem. If you find none, i'd then suggest you check the oil pickup in the sump. If A: The gasket that mounts the pickup to the upper sump is damaged or the bolts that seal this union are loose. Or B: if the o-ring that seals the upper sump oil pickup galley to the block is pinched/damaged, it's feasible that either of these could deteriorate over time and cause a further drop in oil pressure. Alternatively you could have a sticking open oil pressure relief valve or a faulty oil pump. You just need to go through the basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I'd first cut open the oil filter and check the oil for particles... If you find anything suspicious then take the sump off and check for swarf etc... If you find some it's pretty obvious you have a major problem. If you find none, i'd then suggest you check the oil pickup in the sump. If A: The gasket that mounts the pickup to the upper sump is damaged or the bolts that seal this union are loose. Or B: if the o-ring that seals the upper sump oil pickup galley to the block is pinched/damaged, it's feasible that either of these could deteriorate over time and cause a further drop in oil pressure. Alternatively you could have a sticking open oil pressure relief valve or a faulty oil pump. You just need to go through the basics. Thank you very much....! that is great information...! fyi: the car passed a compression test does this mean anything related to this oil pressure problem? Also am very suspicious as of why the front crank oil seal is leaking oil in the first place? this low oil pressure is probably related? Could it be blocked drain hole, with contaminated oil? Feeeck... it really is not looking good for me. Edited January 26, 2015 by Brazil (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 I just got told that today after the oil got hot and the car was taken for a quick 2km drive, the oil pressure at idle when hot was only 'half a bar' 7 psi. What ever it is, looks like its getting worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 These are all signs of a knackered oil pump due to contamination As James says check for swarf in the oil or filter. Have you had any engine parts shot blasted and powder coated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudsey Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I know you say the car is in a garage, but... I would very strongly suggest that its not driven around with oil pressure that low. Before you know it you will end up with a knackered engine. I would strongly suggest stripping all the add on's off, fit a new oil pump and replace any faulty seals as you have found, then do a correct oil pressure test. This should be very straight forward indeed, can't believe the issues your having. I would have thrown the towel in ages ago, would hate to see things go bad again for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy442 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Have you spoken to Chris Wilson? After all he built the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 With all this work on the car I would have imagined that you would have changed the Oil Pump for a new one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bailey Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Have you spoken to Chris Wilson? After all he built the engine. 100% this! Id be contacting the garage and telling them not to touch the car until you hear from Chris Wilson. Maybe he can clear up some information before this situation gets out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 These are all signs of a knackered oil pump due to contamination As James says check for swarf in the oil or filter. Have you had any engine parts shot blasted and powder coated? I remember the inlet was partly painted and some was in the inlet but it was cleaned up, ''supposed have been''. I know you say the car is in a garage, but... I would very strongly suggest that its not driven around with oil pressure that low. Before you know it you will end up with a knackered engine. I would strongly suggest stripping all the add on's off, fit a new oil pump and replace any faulty seals as you have found, then do a correct oil pressure test. This should be very straight forward indeed, can't believe the issues your having. I would have thrown the towel in ages ago, would hate to see things go bad again for you. There is no more driving, am just devising a forward plan. I wont be putting in a new engine, if this goes to shit, its game over for me...! Have you spoken to Chris Wilson? After all he built the engine. yes, he told me to check the oil pump relive valve, and also thought that we should not have mapped the run in with boost. With all this work on the car I would have imagined that you would have changed the Oil Pump for a new one? Yes, the pump is new. 100% this! Id be contacting the garage and telling them not to touch the car until you hear from Chris Wilson. Maybe he can clear up some information before this situation gets out of hand. This is what has been done. looks like I have a forward plan, going to look at the oil filter and check the sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 This is the second engine to have oil system problems. I have been thinking about what common denominator there may be and I am wondering why it started out with good pressure, then seemingly slowly it started to drop. Plus you say the front seal is leaking. I am wondering about bead blast media contamination. Those polished cam covers.... I will not media blast engine components. Judd, (Engine Developments) will not have an abrasive blasting machine in the whole of their complex. I wonder if abrasive media is living under the oil baffles of the cam covers and entering the oil system when running? Or media is contaminating the oil from some other source? The oil pump you supplied was brand new, and I have only known, via a post on this forum I helped with, of a new pump having a stuck CLOSED pressure relief valve. I also fear the aggressive dyno running from near zero hours from new was not a good idea, I like a few thousand miles without boost on a new build engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattP Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) Regardless of other factors your going to be looking down into the oil pump region mate simply because of the leak you May aswell check the relief valve while your there. My relief valve did the opposite and stuck closed as Chris mentioned the other things wrong with mine were simply bad luck and old engine parts.. You can see how scored my valve was in order to seize This was my problem.. http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?312926-Major-Oil-Leak-(&highlight=Major+oil+leak Report back your findings if any and go from there as currently its anyones best guess.... Edited January 27, 2015 by MattP (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 Ok Guys, Today I drained all the oil from the car and filtered it and there was hardly any metal particles as you can see below. I have spoken to Chris, and he is confident that he fitted all new seal in the sump therefore we are now going to have a look at the oil pump pressure release valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Check the relief valve first, if that's ok then You need to take the oil pump off, open it up and inspect the rotors for scoring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Just spoken to the mechanic and he told me that he believes the oil pressure valve is stuck open; he says he needs to take something off to confirm if it's stuck open or closed but for sure it is stuck. If it's stuck open and we can redress it; what you guys suggest I do so this does not happen again? By cheap thin oil and dump several times for instance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 See what's in it. I would STRONGLY advise you, and anyone else reading, to never have cam covers polished *WITHOUT* drilling out the baffle rivets and properly cleaning any residue. Re-attach with Allen bolts in drilled and tapped holes. Drill and lock wire them or use Loctite, you do not want one floating around the inside of the engine!! The relief valve itself should lift out on a magnetic stick. If it won't it's sticking. In the past I have had to turn down a wooden dowel to push into the cup shaped valve to pull it out. Be careful not to make the dowel too tight a fit, or it will expand the valve radially and it will not come out at all! You need to have a real good think and examination as to where any oil system contaminants have come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I do feel for you, seems the car is cursed. In the long run, I bet it would work out cheaper sending the car to the uk, get the right company working on it, a supra specialist that works on these cars evey day, fix all issues and road test for a couple of weeks before you collect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Ok after further investigation we found that the oil pressure release valve was not trapped open but there is some light scoring on it. Since its a new pump and there should be shiny new it looks like what ever scored it would of tore up the oil pump. So what do you guys suggest to do next? The mechanic told me, he suggest pulling the engine out, inspecting and cleaning oil sump and pick up line, replacing pump opening the cam covers and inspecting it and cleaning where needed. I guess after this and put together is just have to pray and hope it does not happen again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Bump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattP Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) That's what I did in similar circumstances. Check check and check again mine was down to age but yours being new I would suggest what CW said check parts you fitted were not hiding any nasties... Cam covers in particular Edited January 28, 2015 by MattP (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) cam covers are first place to look, remove the baffles and see if there is any dirt or debris Anything that's been powder coated, painted or polished needs checking and cleaning If The cam covers are bad you may have to throw the baffle plates and use different ones. You need to fully strip the engine and inspect everything It may have damaged other things as well Edited January 28, 2015 by Lee P (see edit history) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazil Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 cam covers are first place to look, remove the baffles and see if there is any dirt or debris Anything that's been powder coated, painted or polished needs checking and cleaning If The cam covers are bad you may have to throw the baffle plates and use different ones. You need to fully strip the engine and inspect everything It may have damaged other things as well do I need to remove the pistons or just turn it and inspect the bores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_Tidy_1 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 On brand new engines you need to run them in with a couple psi of boost,, otherwise the pistons rings wont seat properly and you wont hsve an engine that last otherwise,,, cause as soon as you apply boost to the engine then, thea wear on the rings are gonna be significantly different, Which will result in a faster wearing engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1_Tidy_1 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Say 8 psi orso give or take. That way the engine gets run in with boost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee P Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 do I need to remove the pistons or just turn it and inspect the bores? If the oil pump is all scored then pull it all apart and thoroughly clean and check everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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