New setup advice, 800whp

Check out the US Supra forum. There are plenty of examples on there. I believe JamieP also ran 1000hp on a stock bottom end for a period of time in the early days. Also, what would be the penalty for bending a rod? Having to rebuild the bottom end? But then again, I never really suggested running 1000hp...

I’d always take the Yanks figures with a pinch of salt but nonetheless, I’ve had a look around and couldn’t find anyone that’s successfully run 1000hp reliably on an stock bottom end. They all seem to advise 800 as the safe roof as well...

Even Jamie hasn’t been all the way up there, he weighs in on this thread to support that. He hasn’t built anything that hasn’t been rebuilt for 4 figures since 2014 either.

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?312650-Stock-internals-limits

I suppose the penalty for bending a rod is potentially having it exit your block sideways, leaving you with a block fit for nothing more than a paperweight. Even at 900hp as you suggested, it’s asking for trouble.

A built bottom end is cheap on the grand scheme of things.

Why risk it.

The second the bottom end blows up. You would easily pay double the cost of a rebuild to resolve the issue that second.

So dont take the risk. You already have doubts.

Treat forging as investment upon the current expenditure on current installation of components. Not as needless funds.

I’d always take the Yanks figures with a pinch of salt but nonetheless, I’ve had a look around and couldn’t find anyone that’s successfully run 1000hp reliably on an stock bottom end. They all seem to advise 800 as the safe roof as well...

 

Even Jamie hasn’t been all the way up there, he weighs in on this thread to support that. He hasn’t built anything that hasn’t been rebuilt for 4 figures since 2014 either.

 

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?312650-Stock-internals-limits

 

I suppose the penalty for bending a rod is potentially having it exit your block sideways, leaving you with a block fit for nothing more than a paperweight. Even at 900hp as you suggested, it’s asking for trouble.

Here are a few links a quick Google search has returned:

https://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/136499-stock-long-block-2jz-gte-1043-whp-808-tq-gt47-80-e85.html - the irony is powerful.

There are lots of variables involved here, mainly however, is the destroyer of worlds; torque. If you limit the torque to a safe level, you can "safely" run 900hp all day long. I say this again and reiterate that this approach will not be everybody's cup of tea, I somewhat enjoy taking calculated risks. Occasionally they don't pay off, but when they do pay off...

OP has already fitted uprated head studs so head lift should not be an issue when increasing boost.

Finally, tuners tend to be overly cautious (not saying they shouldn't) when mapping customer cars due to the risk of being held liable in tort should things go wrong.

Thanks for all the input guys. It seems that a lot of you are seeing a built bottom end as a much lower cost than I am.

Can you guys give me some pointers on this please?

This is the list I have been given, this all adds up to well over £4K in parts.

Have you thought about just sending your bottom end away for having it forged? For pistons, rods, and bearings to handle up to 1000whp you will be looking at £13-1400 in parts. Possibly less.

 

Where abouts in the uk are you?

 

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

I’m in north London

 

 

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Thanks for all the input guys. It seems that a lot of you are seeing a built bottom end as a much lower cost than I am.

 

Can you guys give me some pointers on this please?

 

This is the list I have been given, this all adds up to well over £4K in parts.

 

https://jza80.mkivsupra.net/imports/2019/11/84.jpg

 

 

 

I’m in north London

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

Looks and sounds about right to me, you will also need to factor in the labour costs, which will equally be significant.

Yes a couple of grand for labour.

So what am I not getting with members talking about £1300 and £1600 in parts to do it?

Engine rebuilds may be cheaper outside of London perhaps?

Yes a couple of grand for labour.

 

So what am I not getting with members talking about £1300 and £1600 in parts to do it?

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

I was talking bare minimum parts really. Pistons, rods, ARP bolts and then bearings. You don’t need any of the Titan parts, billet mains are an extra, as are the head shims as that’s not bottom end.

Style is right. It all depends what you are targeting, and if you are futureproofing. Standard manley h beam rods are built to handle 1200hp @flywheel. This is with the arp 2000 bolts and to have an rpm of no more than 8000.

Billet mains - another one you wont need unless going serious power, over 1200whp. Instead using arp bolts with stock mains would suffice.

Pistons, i havnt looked into this on my build but every manufacturer gives a rating.

Flywheel damper - stock oem damper will work fine unless you are trying to rev up at a phenomenal rate, you will need to look at a different one if this is the case.

As far as money. You can do it on a budget, or you can go all out with that list that you have. If you want to chat about it, i will offer all my advise and learnings. Just send me a pm. Im always open to help anyone.

Thanks again.

My end goal if I were to do the bottom end would be a healthy 1000fwhp. I also want to raise the Rev limit to at least 8000rpm as that’s what I have had the head work done for.

What, if anything, can I potentially knock off that list for this goal?

I also want to raise the Rev limit to at least 8000rpm

Thats where things get tricky. Revs kill engines more than power does so you're going to need billet caps, maybe a dry sump set up. You cannot, and I repeat cannot, aim for these goals on the cheap.

I dont know if anyone has asked but, what are you building the car for?

Also, what would be the penalty for bending a rod? Having to rebuild the bottom end?

Throw a leg out of bed, punching a hole in the block?

Building an engine for 1000hp is not cheap , trying to make champagne on a beer budget will not fair too good ; If you want to make big and reliable power you gotta spend the money.

I have seen so many cars have huge sums of cash thrown at them, best known brands, resulting in poor execution with the consequence of reliability, driveability ... money pit getting bounced around having numerous people involved all blaming the previous guy

Even if you have a 2002 car , it is 17 years old; I would get the expectation of longevity from an unopened block pushing 1000hp out of your head, I could sit here tell you what you want to hear, post links of some stranger on youtube claiming to run 1000hp on stock everything ; most likely just looking for click bait , nothing to verify it is an unopened block, reenforcing your denial ; ignorance is bliss

This is 650hp on original OE main caps after a rebuild, talk to reputable builders who are not looking at you as just an invoice , wash their hands of it later

Building an engine for 1000hp is not cheap , trying to make champagne on a beer budget will not fair too good ; If you want to make big and reliable power you gotta spend the money.

 

I have seen so many cars have huge sums of cash thrown at them, best known brands, resulting in poor execution with the consequence of reliability, driveability ... money pit getting bounced around having numerous people involved all blaming the previous guy

 

Even if you have a 2002 car , it is 17 years old; I would get the expectation of longevity from an unopened block pushing 1000hp out of your head, I could sit here tell you what you want to hear, post links of some stranger on youtube claiming to run 1000hp on stock everything ; most likely just looking for click bait , nothing to verify it is an unopened block, reenforcing your denial ; ignorance is bliss

 

This is 650hp on original OE main caps after a rebuild, talk to reputable builders who are not looking at you as just an invoice , wash their hands of it later

 

https://i.imgur.com/vk4UcR9l.jpg

Must have been quite the traumatising experience blowing your engine at 650hp. Not really typical of a clean and healthy 2JZ-GTE.

So far, I've personally been running 700+hp on a completely standard engine with no issues. Next stage will be 850-900hp on a standard bottom end with some minor head work. Will post evidence of reliability, driveability and performance, in due course.

Who would you suggest meets your criteria to carry out engine building work without treating me like a cash cow?

Thanks again.

 

My end goal if I were to do the bottom end would be a healthy 1000fwhp. I also want to raise the Rev limit to at least 8000rpm as that’s what I have had the head work done for.

 

What, if anything, can I potentially knock off that list for this goal?

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

If you want to achieve both, I'd personally rebuild the bottom end with most, if not all, the components listed. 8k revolutions and 1k HP is not going to be cheap. But I maintain, I personally wouldn't bother with the bottom end if you will be happy at 800-900fwhp, so it all comes down to whether you think the additional circa ~100fwhp is worth the additional ~£6k.

Must have been quite the traumatising experience blowing your engine at 650hp. Not really typical of a clean and healthy 2JZ-GTE.

 

So far, I've personally been running 700+hp on a completely standard engine with no issues. Next stage will be 850-900hp on a standard bottom end with some minor head work. Will post evidence of reliability, driveability and performance, in due course.

 

Who would you suggest meets your criteria to carry out engine building work without treating me like a cash cow?

Not my engine , but a shops customers engine who decided to ignore the advice of the builder , one who based on their experience, other Customers and advise of the builder ; I decided to have billet mains installed. When you factor in labor , parts ...its not worth the risk

It is up to you to do your due diligence on it, all you can do is try mitigate the risk ; I would advise talking to the Shops customers with 900 hp on a stock bottom end. Make an educated decision when all the variables are presented before you

Remember on strip down , for example your crank needs to be measured and be within the toyota specs; dont go into a build ,naive and think my 17 year old engine is factory fresh , things wear , things need replacing ...unexpected expenditures will and can come up; you need to factor in a contingence fund in your budget

Not my engine , but a shops customers engine who decided to ignore the advice of the builder , one who based on their experience, other Customers and advise of the builder ; I decided to have billet mains installed. When you factor in labor , parts ...its not worth the risk

 

It is up to you to do your due diligence on it, all you can do is try mitigate the risk ; I would advise talking to the Shops customers with 900 hp on a stock bottom end. Make an educated decision when all the variables are presented before you

 

Remember on strip down , for example your crank needs to be measured and be within the toyota specs; dont go into a build ,naive and think my 17 year old engine is factory fresh , things wear , things need replacing ...unexpected expenditures will and can come up; you need to factor in a contingence fund in your budget

Agreed, it largely depends on the individual's appetite for risk. Personally, I wouldn't go over 900hp on a standard bottom end, admittedly, this is a risk, albeit calculated. But then again, going BPU is also a calculated risk...

I dare say as someone has said before. Application is everything.

Are you using it for drag events, running it flat out and using as much of the 1000whp that you can or is it just a weekend car, where using the full power potential will be alot less often, and will be small pulls on backroads etc.

The list you have composed is a bullet proof list with everything you could possibly get. For someone with a massive budget where money is no issue.

Considering all this, a decent map can make a break an engine. It can be the best built engine in the world with all the best parts. With a crap map, it wont make the right power and has the capability of self destructing. Yet a engine with a few small crucial parts can be made as reliable as one with all the bells and whistles with a well composed map.

Agreed, it largely depends on the individual's appetite for risk. Personally, I wouldn't go over 900hp on a standard bottom end, admittedly, this is a risk, albeit calculated. But then again, going BPU is also a calculated risk...

900 hp on a standard bottom end, this is not risk, mechanical suicide

When you engine does grenade itself, how

catastrophic will the damage be, if you have deep pockets for a new crank, block ; high risk these will be damaged

What you don't seem to comprehend, as said previously

 

900 hp on a standard bottom end, this is not risk, mechanical suicide

 

When you engine does grenade itself, how

catastrophic will the damage be, if you have deep pockets for a new crank, block ; high risk these will be damaged

 

/QUOTE]

 

Sir, I comprehend it well. Dare I say, better than most. Mechanical suicide it may, but it's a risk I am willing to take. This does not mean anybody should follow me and do as I do, nor is it an invitation of any sort, because I never take a risk I cannot afford to take should things go belly up.

Just to throw some fuel to the fire [emoji23]

But it's a US car...

But it's a US car...

Haahah [emoji23][emoji23] those US ones are a different breed. Must be the air over there

I dare say as someone has said before. Application is everything.

 

Are you using it for drag events, running it flat out and using as much of the 1000whp that you can or is it just a weekend car, where using the full power potential will be alot less often, and will be small pulls on backroads etc.

 

The list you have composed is a bullet proof list with everything you could possibly get. For someone with a massive budget where money is no issue.

 

 

 

Considering all this, a decent map can make a break an engine. It can be the best built engine in the world with all the best parts. With a crap map, it wont make the right power and has the capability of self destructing. Yet a engine with a few small crucial parts can be made as reliable as one with all the bells and whistles with a well composed map.

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

It’s my weekend car so miles are low. But I have never scrimped on anything on this car so I am unlikely to start now.

 

What are the few crucial parts though? Let’s say I don’t go mad with the revs and keep them to 7500rpm

 

 

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It’s my weekend car so miles are low. But I have never scrimped on anything on this car so I am unlikely to start now.

 

What are the few crucial parts though? Let’s say I don’t go mad with the revs and keep them to 7500rpm

 

 

/QUOTE]

 

Me personally,

 

I would -

 

Purchase oem full engine gasket set. £320

 

Acl rod bearings £100

 

Acl main bearings £100

 

Manley rods £750

 

Manley pistons with upgraded pins £900

 

Arp main cap bolts £150

 

Arp main engine bolts£

 

Ati damper or keep oem one if its in decent nick

 

Measure the block you have and hone it lightly yourself. If its in oem spec then just a light hone to increase oil galleries in the bore will suffice. My engine has 130k on the block and the honing marks were still very prominent from factory.

 

If you really want to, then send it away to get it overbored and honed out (looks like you specc’d this already with 86.5mm pistons) not sure how much this would cost as ive never had it done. And get the deck re-skimmed.

 

Other than that i personally wouldn’t do anything else. But thats me. Off the top of my head anyway

 

 

 

 

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