Manchester attack

Our laws are derived on our religious heritage, but have grown well beyond the scope of that now, to the point where much of our human rights legislation contradicts the teachings of religion, such as with homosexuality.

I'm not an atheist and neither was Hitler, who was suspicious of atheists because of their links with communism. He has something of an obsession with older European and Scandinavian culture and religion, and may have given up his Christianity for that (but there's still much debate on his actual faith)

I'd Of course I accept that the vast majority of religious people are completely peaceful towards others, but many will hold views which really aren't acceptable in this day and age, and if they don't, that is in direct contradiction to their faith.

What wider issues? You could call them cultural issues, but as these cultures stem directly from and are bound by their religious beliefs, it is all intertwined. As I said, that's just the tip of the iceberg, we still have barbaric ritual animal slaughter happening (Kosher), sexism and gender segregation is still in practice in some Christian and Muslim communities, and people are being coerced into staying in abusive relationships by their church, as divorce is viewed as a sin, and bizarre religious schools, who among other things forsake centuries of Darwinism in favour of illogical and irrational creationism.

I wholeheartedly think that people should be free to believe what they want, so long as it doesn't affect others, but on balance I think that *organised* religion actually does more harm than good now, at all levels.

I think people are starting to realise that the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) are a hindrance to decent, liberal societies, and are abandoning religion en masse. Churches are almost empty most of the time, and even in a small place like York you see a lot of Muslims drinking with everyone else on a weekend. That is what the likes of Isis and other Islamists despise, people abandoning religion, and thereby depriving them of any power.

Can I just point out that it's a common myth that the Christian church is in decline. Allot of national statics are based upon the decline of attendance in the Church of England. Other evangelical Christian churches are actually showing growth.

I do agree that Religion is a problem, but I might also point out that most evangelical churches try to follow the teachings of Jesus who spent most of his time hacking off the religious people of the time, right up to the point where they killed him. Its MAN's interpretation of God that causes the problems.

Did you know he is under investigation as someone in Ireland was offended at his blasphemous comments

 

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-launch-blasphemy-probe-into-stephen-fry-comments-on-the-meaning-of-life-35684262.html

Nothing to see here!

Nothing to see here!

Channel 4 news last night "done over" by the woman in the ludicrous outfit. L is a knuckle duster, O is a grenade, V is a flick knife, and E is an assault rifle.... LOVE. Classy, and look at the bling on her hands.... All done in the best possible taste, you just got to love Manchester.

I lived in Rusholme for a while, that looks about right. The place is a mess, streets are covered in rubbish all of the time and there is a lot of Starwars cantina music being played out of very battered looking cars at all hours, but I never had any problems while I was there (unless you count people in ASDA not understanding how a queue works).

Edit: BONUS! My IS200 is still on street view...

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Rusholme is Manchester's answer to the infamous King's Heath in Birmingham, and it's no surprise it's now on the terrorist map.

The more important factor there is that the arseholes make headlines, good people very rarely do.

Yes and all you need are a few maniac's to get into a position of power and everything goes to shit !doesn't matter how many good people there are.

I cannot confess to reading the Quran, but does it? From what I'm to believe there are indeed passages that incite violence against non-believers. It is commonly known as Jihad.

Jihad is mentioned loads of times in the Quran, it means struggle. Yep that is exactly what it means but for some reason it has been portrayed in the western media as war. Guess it is a catchy word, good marketing.

With regards to religion, the young chap who blew himself up turns out to be drinker, into drugs & local gang culture... so technically that means anyone who drinks is also responsible right? I mean you are like him?

We see it all the time that when something like this happens everyone starts the whole religion debate but forgets to mention that ISIS kill ratio is 95% Muslims.

Yet the news is filled with how much ISIS hate the west... just last month alone on one blast 126 Muslims were killed by ISIS, 68 of that figure was children, though still people want to push the religion card.

This is how you spread hatred and I see it so much, very ill informed people making things up as they go along.

Rusholme is Manchester's answer to the infamous King's Heath in Birmingham, and it's no surprise it's now on the terrorist map.

You need half a mill to buy a 4 bed in Kings Heath these days

Jihad is mentioned loads of times in the Quran, it means struggle. Yep that is exactly what it means but for some reason it has been portrayed in the western media as war. Guess it is a catchy word, good marketing.

 

With regards to religion, the young chap who blew himself up turns out to be drinker, into drugs & local gang culture... so technically that means anyone who drinks is also responsible right? I mean you are like him?

 

We see it all the time that when something like this happens everyone starts the whole religion debate but forgets to mention that ISIS kill ratio is 95% Muslims.

 

Yet the news is filled with how much ISIS hate the west... just last month alone on one blast 126 Muslims were killed by ISIS, 68 of that figure was children, though still people want to push the religion card.

 

This is how you spread hatred and I see it so much, very ill informed people making things up as they go along.

Meine Kampf, Hitler's works describing his awful attitudes towards the Jews, also translates as 'My Struggle'. A 'Struggle' can be anything, but in Fascism and it's close associate Islamism, it generally translates as discrimination, oppression, and violence.

The Islamists use the term Jihad themselves, this isnt some random slogan western media has attached.

95% of kills by Isis are Muslims, but 100% of Isis are Muslims. Muslims aren't one people (as you well know), and much of the conflict by Muslim groups are with other Muslim groups.

Calling others "Ill informed" doesn't make you right. On the contrary, you've made a pretty big, and pretty "Ill informed2 assumption about religious people in your post. Do you actually think people are consistently religious all of their lives? In every religion I can think of, people often waiver in their faith, often during their formative years, some even consider this a right of passage (mormons).

And besides, why would the consumption of alcohol make someone any less of a Muslim? I'm sure there are a few things in your religion which you do not do. Certainly, if people followed any of the abrahamic religions to the letter, they would be every bit as monstrous as Isis.

I have absolutely no religious faith or feelings, never have had. It amazes me given what we know how much of the world still believes in this made up nonsense and is willing to fight for it and in the name of it regardless of the death and suffering it causes, and I mean ALL religions

Guys, I think a huge amount of this has missed the absolutely outstanding reaction from Manchester as a city. If you want to have a theological discussion, can we move it to a different thread?

I've never been one for national pride, but the reaction of the emergency services, businesses and general populace should be the focus of this, not the people who continue to attack us. That's an entirely different issue and (while I agree it should be discussed, at length, without the censorship of certain "protected groups") I think we're missing the point. For those of you interested in pursuing this, I can recommend anything Douglas Murray has to say; plenty of it is available on youtube and he's rapidly becoming the Christopher Hitchens of this generation.

I have absolutely no religious faith or feelings, never have had. It amazes me given what we know how much of the world still believes in this made up nonsense and is willing to fight for it and in the name of it regardless of the death and suffering it causes, and I mean ALL religions

Indeed, it makes far more sense to worship the sun as more 'primitive' man once did, it's what sustains life after all. Ah but how did that get created and the universe etc well perhaps 'God' created this, but then we now know it will run out one day, so what's he playing at?

Imagine a hypothetical question where you either give up your faith or the sun is turned off tomorrow? Would those with religious faith trust their God enough that he would save them and the rest of Humanity, is their faith so strong, I honestly think for some it is. It's hard to those of us with little/no faith in a higher power to appreciate just how much faith some can have, just as those that hold that level of faith see our non faith as unfathomable or damn well insulting due to the inference we think they are somewhat blinkered in the their views.

Their faith is part of who they are their identity, I cannot relate, I don't consider my Agnostic 'ism or Atheism part of me, I have an open mind (again sort of implies those in a religion don't which can rile!) I could give it up tomorrow if I 'found' a religion I wanted to follow but many religious followers can't/couldn't or at least don't feel they can for numerous reasons.

Guys, I think a huge amount of this has missed the absolutely outstanding reaction from Manchester as a city. If you want to have a theological discussion, can we move it to a different thread?

 

I've never been one for national pride, but the reaction of the emergency services, businesses and general populace should be the focus of this, not the people who continue to attack us. That's an entirely different issue and (while I agree it should be discussed, at length, without the censorship of certain "protected groups") I think we're missing the point. For those of you interested in pursuing this, I can recommend anything Douglas Murray has to say; plenty of it is available on youtube and he's rapidly becoming the Christopher Hitchens of this generation.

Sort of agree (I typed my previous post before seeing yours) but then threads just go a natural path?

Guys, I think a huge amount of this has missed the absolutely outstanding reaction from Manchester as a city. If you want to have a theological discussion, can we move it to a different thread?

To be fair, the media has given a lot of very good coverage of the outstanding way in which Manchester has handled this.

But this is very much a theological issue. Before we stand a chance of fighting this awful culture, there has to be a discussion on the causes.

Even in this so called liberal, reasonably secular democracy, not a day goes by that we don't encounter some for of religious extremism. Homophobia, sexism, anti abortion, women covered up from head to toe because their deity demands it, etc, etc. It's unnaceptable. People shouldn't have the freedom to believe that abortion or homosexuality is evil, and no one is addressing this. If I tried to release a book that was half as discriminatory and hate filled as the bible, the Qur'an or the Torah, I'd likely be arrested.

First of all, people should have the right to their religious beliefs, but never at the expense of other peoples freedoms, democracy, animal welfare etc. As such, the religious texts of all the main religions should be amended, to remove any mention of violence, blasphemy, apostasy, and any kind of discrimination. If religion can't be decent and reform, it shouldn't exist at all.

Secondly, something has to be done about the divisions on our society, and banning all forms religious schools would go a great way to help with integration and unity. Religion should be taught, but it should be in a universal manner, across all schools, in purely an informative way. Indoctrinating children into religion is awful, it should be a free choice for all consenting adults.

My friends mum has been confirmed as one of the dead. All very sad.

My friends mum has been confirmed as one of the dead. All very sad.

How awful.

Meine Kampf, Hitler's works describing his awful attitudes towards the Jews, also translates as 'My Struggle'. A 'Struggle' can be anything, but in Fascism and it's close associate Islamism, it generally translates as discrimination, oppression, and violence.

 

The Islamists use the term Jihad themselves, this isnt some random slogan western media has attached.

 

95% of kills by Isis are Muslims, but 100% of Isis are Muslims. Muslims aren't one people (as you well know), and much of the conflict by Muslim groups are with other Muslim groups.

 

Calling others "Ill informed" doesn't make you right. On the contrary, you've made a pretty big, and pretty "Ill informed2 assumption about religious people in your post. Do you actually think people are consistently religious all of their lives? In every religion I can think of, people often waiver in their faith, often during their formative years, some even consider this a right of passage (mormons).

 

And besides, why would the consumption of alcohol make someone any less of a Muslim? I'm sure there are a few things in your religion which you do not do. Certainly, if people followed any of the abrahamic religions to the letter, they would be every bit as monstrous as Isis.

How fitting of you to use the word "struggle" to your view of Islam and place it in line with Nazi's... pretty much exactly how the folks at ISIS think in the same mentality.

You know the first place I heard about the word Jihad being about war? In the news papers & on TV, same as people who say Muslims use the term "infidel" - again this was widely used.

I did write out a decent piece about religion but thought no point in wasting my time, it's like talking to members of Britain First or EDL, they have a narrative and that is what they believe in.

Your last sentence pretty much sums that up and it is the equivalent of me associating you to every killing or attack that happens and blaming you for it because the person is not religious and that somehow associates you with it.

My friends mum has been confirmed as one of the dead. All very sad.

Edited. No point in saying more

How fitting of you to use the word "struggle" to your view of Islam and place it in line with Nazi's... pretty much exactly how the folks at ISIS think in the same mentality.

I said "Islamism", which is akin to fascism, Christian fundamentalism and Zionism. The aim of the 'Islamist' is the establishment of an authoritarian Islamic society, using any means necessary. All Islamists are obviously Muslims, but the vast majority of Muslims (at least, Western Muslims in any case) are not Islamists. Isis, Boko Haram, Hamas, and the regime's in Saudi, Qatar, Iran Turkey etc are Islamists as opposed to Muslims.

You know the first place I heard about the word Jihad being about war? In the news papers & on TV, same as people who say Muslims use the term "infidel" - again this was widely used.

Over the last few days I've seen some pretty angry people referring to the British population (presumably including British Muslims) as "Kufr" and something along the lines of " filthy pig/swine eating scum". Maybe the word infidel has fallen out of fashion with Islamists?

I did write out a decent piece about religion but thought no point in wasting my time, it's like talking to members of Britain First or EDL, they have a narrative and that is what they believe in.

Wait a second... I am completely open minded. I dobt have a 'faith'. I like facts, or tangible evidence. As a religious person, I'm not sure how you can accuse others of "having a narrative, and that's what they believe", as that is a perfect description of your own beliefs. It is open mindedness that allowed me to overcome the Christian religion I (and many others here) had drilled into them from a young age, being made to pray etc at school. The generations before us (of all faiths) were also victims of this sickening indoctrination, and are also victims of religion.

Your last sentence pretty much sums that up and it is the equivalent of me associating you to every killing or attack that happens and blaming you for it because the person is not religious and that somehow associates you with it.

These killings are carried out in the name of your God! If people started blowing themselves up *in the name of agnosticism / atheism * you would have a point, but they don't. They do it because they are led to believe it is the will of your deity by truly awful people, and they believe (thanks to a lifetime of indoctrination) that they will receive a great reward in the afterlife.

Plus, there's the not so insignificant fact that all of these recruits are coming from Muslim communities, so to try and make out that it is nothing to do with Islam is frankly nonsense. Islam is the common denominator here, and there are clearly elements of Islam which these people are very effectively exploiting.

The RAF have sent a message from Manchester, with more LOVE

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...islamic-state/

The RAF have sent a message from Manchester, with more LOVE

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...islamic-state/

Same bombs (maybe without a quote on them) started a problem in a first place, when USA, UK and allies decided to bring democracy and enlightment into Middle East instead of leaving them alone. Many people focusing on religious motif of those attacks, when in fact it have nothing to do with religion, except for a fact it is used to convince weak minded to sacrifice themself. A lot of you mistaken primitive interpretation of religion with simple mind of "teachers". Imagine, how smart and cunning you have to be to convince someone to kill himslef/herself in a name of anything...

If it will bring any kind of relief - we are still winning in a proportion of around 100:1 ....

Same bombs (maybe without a quote on them) started a problem in a first place, when USA, UK and allies decided to bring democracy and enlightment into Middle East instead of leaving them alone. Many people focusing on religious motif of those attacks, when in fact it have nothing to do with religion, except for a fact it is used to convince weak minded to sacrifice themself. A lot of you mistaken primitive interpretation of religion with simple mind of "teachers". Imagine, how smart and cunning you have to be to convince someone to kill himslef/herself in a name of anything...

If it will bring any kind of relief - we are still winning in a proportion of around 100:1 ....

I'm sorry but I hate that argument so much.

We didn't just wake up one day and go 'I know, lets give the middle east some democracy'

Very specific events led up to the war in Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq.

Yes the public were lied to about the capability of Iraq's WMD's, but we didn't just go over there on a whim.

And yes we made mistakes about the people and the insurgents in the middle east.

But please, don't make out that we started this by bombing them first.