View Full Version : ICE advise on an amp
Ive got an alpine type x subwoofer to go in soon, the output is: 3000 watts and 1000watts rms.
i need to find a suitable amp but know f*all when it comes to this sort of thing. the guy im getting the sub off has reccomended this amp to me.. and says itll run very well with the sub, can someone check out the specs and tell me if this will be ok?
>>Specifications: Maximum output power
>>
>>2 x 1500 Watts @ 2 ohms
>>2 x 1000 Watts @ 4 ohms
>>1 x 2000 Watts @ 4 ohms (bridged)
>>
>>
>>Frequency response
>>
>>20Hz ~ 30KHz ± 1 dB
>>
>>
>>Input sensitivity
>>
>>< 250 mV
>>
>>
>>Signal/Noise Ratio
>>
>>99 dB
>>
>>
>>Speaker impedance
>>
>>Stereo output: 2 ~ 16 ohms
>>Bridged output: 4 ~ 16 ohms
>>
>>
>>Power supply
>>
>>DC 12V
>>
>>
>>Dimensions:
>>(length x width x height)
>>
>>380 x 260 x 60 mm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Features:
>>
>>Linearized frequency response characteristic
>>2 channel input
>>2 channel output
>>Gold plated low level input and output terminals
>>Stereo/bridged output
>>Treble/bass/gain control circuit
>>Normal/Low pass subwoofer output transition control switch
>>Aluminium heat-sink
>>Protection indicator
>>Thermal overheat/overload/short circuit protection functions
>>Turn on delay
>>External fuses
>>Field-effect high performance power supply circuit
>>Power supply indicator
>>12V power supply
heres the sub specs:
Maximum Input Power Rating - 3000 W
Sensitivity - 83 dB
Overall Max Frequency Response - 200 Hz
Peak Power Output - 3000 W
RMS Power Output - 1000 W
Overall Min Frequency Response - 23 Hz
Nominal Impedance - 4 ohm(s)
Crutchfield - Yes
Warranty Information - 1 Year Limited Warranty
URL - Manufacturer Link
Cone Material - Aluminum (Not Specified)
General Features - Dual Voice-Coil
Cone Style - Cone
Diameter - 12 in
RobSheffield
29-12-06, 23:08
Get the Alpine amp we discussed on msn - the one i took an hour to sort out with ya ;)
Lol maz come round mine i'll help you out, i fit ice for a living now so should be able to help you out fella.
Lol maz come round mine i'll help you out, i fit ice for a living now so should be able to help you out fella.
AH rico i forgot you do that now! il come round some time next week. my kit should HOPEFULLY be arriving soon too :D
what you reckon to the spec of that amp above? ive not bought it yet just checking its good enough for the job first.
it doesnt look too bad spec but i do think running that type of bass in a supe is overkill fella you could get a far better sound from a smaller spec amp and sub without the drain on your battery.And if you do run it run a power cap aswell to make sure its got a stable current.
it doesnt look too bad spec but i do think running that type of bass in a supe is overkill fella you could get a far better sound from a smaller spec amp and sub without the drain on your battery.And if you do run it run a power cap aswell to make sure its got a stable current.
as long as it doesent smash the rear screen ill be ok! primarily the reason i chose that sub is because it gives a good thump and i like to listen to dub etc. ill come see you next week when ive got it and see whats what :D
Chiefgroover
31-12-06, 21:55
Whats this going into? a bus?
Assuming that it's going into a Supra, it's overkill.
Your Sub is 1000WRMS thats the only figure you need.
To allow for current spikes 800WRMS would be a safe max.
You will need a very good power cap. You would also be best to fit a 2 gauge earth cable from the battery to the front chassis leg below, and take your boot earth direct from the chassis legs there, this way it has no losses due to passing through many spot welded panels. The Supra chassis leg is a one piece with no joins/welds.
How you are going to stop the rattles when using that subs potential beats me.
Chiefgroover - Ex-IASCA (irl) president, winner of 1995 nationals, designer/tuner of 1996 euro finals 2nd place car, builder of loads of great sounding and competition winning cars.
Whats this going into? a bus?
Assuming that it's going into a Supra, it's overkill.
Your Sub is 1000WRMS thats the only figure you need.
To allow for current spikes 800WRMS would be a safe max.
You will need a very good power cap. You would also be best to fit a 2 gauge earth cable from the battery to the front chassis leg below, and take your boot earth direct from the chassis legs there, this way it has no losses due to passing through many spot welded panels. The Supra chassis leg is a one piece with no joins/welds.
How you are going to stop the rattles when using that subs potential beats me.
Chiefgroover - Ex-IASCA (irl) president, winner of 1995 nationals, designer/tuner of 1996 euro finals 2nd place car, builder of loads of great sounding and competition winning cars.
not into a bus :blink: into a supra. so you think its too over the top to have a set up like this? would it cause any damage/harm to the electronics of the car then or something?
Chiefgroover
01-01-07, 01:29
Your ears is what you need to worry about. Supra is a small enclosed space, your sub with suitable power can produce SPL that could cause serious hearing probs on extended listening periods. Unlike many saloon cars it has no restriction between sub and driver. How will you get a front end to keep up without being drowned? You may need 175 to 225 wrms per channel up front to try and create a SPL that may sound slightly balanced. That means expensive components and high grade triple darlington output amp.
The ICE world is a minefield, good luck !.
Your ears is what you need to worry about. Supra is a small enclosed space, your sub with suitable power can produce SPL that could cause serious hearing probs on extended listening periods. Unlike many saloon cars it has no restriction between sub and driver. How will you get a front end to keep up without being drowned? You may need 175 to 225 wrms per channel up front to try and create a SPL that may sound slightly balanced. That means expensive components and high grade triple darlington output amp.
The ICE world is a minefield, good luck !.
damn this has now baffled me. my original idea was to have this sub in the boot (ive already paid for the sub) along with a supporting amp.. in the rears some regular coaxials (running from the amp on the stereo) and then front components running off an amp under the seat. upgraded car battery, and i thought job done. obviously it isnt so simple.
so if i were to use the sub but obviously with settings on the stereo to keep it down i.e. not on its max setting, along with the amp specified in my post (2) i think, and the rest do you think it would be a decent set up thatll work well. i want clear sound with good bass really.. and by no means will the sub be on at its fullest at all times.
can you advise me some more if possible?
Chiefgroover
01-01-07, 11:25
OK, here are a few things to help you get there.
Firstly, the stock amp under the seat wont power the front enough for your desired volume level. Your hardest job will be getting a good strong, loud and clear front end. The rears dont need that much power, you may get away with head unit power. The rears being bigger and usually having an 89 to 92db sensitivity will produce a much spl as you need with a small input.
Go 6 1/2" in the front doors (I have posted a how to else where)and make sure the mount is very solid. Exile currently make a very light but poweful set of mids. Not silly priced either. They use the same tweeter as the p.gold Ti elite (designed buy the ex engineers of the french company).
Rear speakers, I wouldnt invest too much in them, and something that sounds a bit laid back would help.
As Supra boots are a bit small, picking the right amp is going to help. Personally I'd go with a 5 or 6channel, with a good RMS rating. Less wires, less fuss. It will need active crossovers, and all the better if you get individual left and right gain controls. Even 5/600wrms on the sub will be very loud, as much as you can stick!.
I will post a pretty ideal system diagram later today if i can get a working scanner.
I hate to see people spend a load of dough and get an iffy sounding system!.
far too much IMO. Unless you are trying to win competitions etc, thats a crazy kind of spec.
I play in a band - i use a 300W RMS amp. Thats loud/good enough to fill a decent sized guildhall venue.
I'm 100% behind most of the people above. Decent quality fronts/rears and small(ish) sub is what you want.
Oh, one thing to continue on.... a 1000wrms system needs a HUGE power source. Power=Volts x Amps.
1000w/12v = 83.3A.
As mentioned 2awg or probably even 0awg is going to be needed.... and it'll be a pain to run it down the length of the car, just because of the thickness.
damn im confused as hell now :(
original plan, ive got front speaker mounts to house 6 1/2'' speakers, and i have some components in already there OK, i was planning to run them from a *new* amp under the passenger seat.
Rears just some 6 1/2'' coax speakers (nothing too fancy, maybe fli/kenwood etc)
and then the alpine sub running off an amp to only power the sub.
seems that ive got it all twisted here and its not going to work v. well. i dont understand all the techie bits you guys have mentioned. my aim with this set up is in no way to win competitions, just that some of the music i like has extreme bass (nothing chav before you get ideas!) just that if i explain most of you wont have a clue what i mean.
anyhow so is it not possible to have this sort of set up, while using the sub only part time? ive already paid for the sub but i dont think id have a very hard time to sell it again, what other sort of set up can you people advise? when i say that i mean can you give me details of:
a) what sub
b) what amp
c) what sort of wiring
d) what speakers
etc :) thank you and please excuse my lack of knowledge on this one
Chiefgroover
02-01-07, 01:05
OK Stick with the 6 1/2 in the front. Now I know your going to run a new amp under the seat, if you can fit it in, 2x70wrms would do it fine.
Rears buy cheap and save your dough for better ideas e.g. audio control multi channel eq (eqs or dqs etc) so you can tighten the sound up to be crisp.
Wiring, that will depend on power consumption as mention here already. Add up the WRMS for the two amps you pick and use the power wire calculator on street wires or phoenix golds web site.
RCA cable quality varys greatly, so your safe with the midrange grade of street wires. Pricey but very good stuff.
Personally I would be tempted to go with a JL12w6v2 sub in a custom firberglass & mdf enclosure. Sounds excellent, and wont need a battery destroying amp. Feeding it 400wrms will make your ears pop, not hard to get sub volume in a supra!.
It's all too easy to get into spending loads in all the wrong areas, and experience is hard to beat, that why you have us your mates in here to keep you right.
Also, name me some of your favourite recordings.
Chief - seems like you know your stuff....gave me good advice as well :thumbs:
Chiefgroover
02-01-07, 01:27
People often want answers like buy this and that, but there are so many products out there that will work, its unreal, however a limited few sound ace!
It's surprising how modest gear with a well setup 30 band eq can outsound mega£ worth of badly matched gear.
Chief top dude. ill look into this some more and give you details of what im going to go for next. need to sell this sub off now.
i listen to alot of dub which is played live and cant really be experienced at home without the sound system to go with it. stuff like - iration steppers, aba shanti
and the regular rnb / dance / etc that doesent require extreme bass
If you pop round mine fella i'll help you look for some bits an bobs, i completely agree with groover he does know his stuff.
Chiefgroover
02-01-07, 19:12
OK, to get that LIVE sound, you need massive dynamics.
This means your front end will need to have big power handling. This could mean £300 to £450rrp for a front end set, but money well spent. It will be important to get the tweeters on axis - pointing in good focus to a point 2" below the rear view mirror so I compact but powerful tweeter is adviseable. The better you can focus this the better the center imaging, which will help with instrument and vocal indivual placing and therefore clarity. It never sounds live when all sound like its on top of one another.
For bass control, Rather than using the headunit, I go with LPL controls like Phoenix gold use. You can install it where you like, its 100% better than a head unit to use, personally i wouldnt have a system without one. Failing that a dual amp balancer (fader control) can be fitted in line. PAC do a decent one.
Can see you being well pleased by the 12w6v2, or you could go a pair of 10" instead, but the single 12 value for money is pretty hard to beat. Making sure it faces forward into the car will give you more spl and punch, also helping the live effect.
The rears are just a general in fill, too much rear will loose the live effect, unless you stand with your back to the band lol.
When setup time comes, you'll need someone with good RTA experience for the EQ. There are loads of idiots with meteres out there, if you were closer to me I'd do it myself. If need be I can send you some EQ curves to copy.
Before RTA can be performed make sure the bass/treble/loudness etc are all off or at zero, and make sure system levels are set even L & R a slight imbalance can have a very negative effect.
You will also need to set the gain levels using a loud test disc, watching the db lights on the eq, then use the RTA to get the flatest line. Now you are distortion free, and balanced, ready to tune.
IF you are not an expereinced tuner, then this guide will get you a good sound, but not a good as an experienced tuner will get using various test discs and experience. You'll need to borrow an RTA for this. Setup the RTA some where you can see it clearly. tape the mic facing forward to the middle of the screen on the inside of the drivers headrest.
Tune the car to a flat line on both sides with the sub disconnected.
Going for the live sound drop the eq 3 db at 250 and 200hz, add 2db @ 1khz, drop 3db @ 8khz, add 3db @ 16khz. Reconnect the sub in the bass add 3db @ 150hz, 6db @ 100hz. and all freqs below except 32 or 35 if you have them drop 6db to stop unwanted and power wasting subsonics. (audio control eq's usually have built in sub sonics even lower than this). Add 9db if you wish @ 50hz, or if its too heavy 6.
Having an amp with an LPL is a gift :)
This wont be perfection but it getting there.
I did a system in a mates Astra, 3 x 10W6, zeropoint front end, big amps, line driver and EQ with a good 8 volts running throught the system and the dynamics are unreal, it sounds VERY live!.
Here is a quick and rough system dia.
Upmarket P.Gold amps sound very live IMO. You can get some great s/h ones for humble money.
Sorry about the rough drawing, but i dont have much time to do it neat!.
e&oe
Chief i really appreciate all this advice your offering. its definately helping me to get somewhere. it seems my original plan was a bit cr@p and wasting £ on things too extreme etc. if i get a list of the stuff ive looked up on and post it up could you offer me some advice on how you think itll all fit together?
with regards to subs, how about 2 alpine type rs? or is that still too o.t.t?
Chiefgroover
02-01-07, 19:24
BTW, the big line voltage gets rid of the whines and hiss.
The single biggest offender in generating whines in supra systems is the top RHS screw on the side bracket than holds the head unit in place.
Pays to isolate the lug with tape or whatever you can come up with. Some people just dont put it in. The metal frame of the dash has an earth, so if you mate with it you have an earth loop.
If you pop round mine fella i'll help you look for some bits an bobs, i completely agree with groover he does know his stuff.
gonna give you a ring in a min mate.
Chiefgroover
02-01-07, 22:39
There are many ways to do this. Here is one you may like.
mr groover i really appreciate all your input on this. me and ric (bluangel) are going to have a pop at fitting in whatever system i finally go for next weekend. your help has been noted and no doubt helped me with the issues iv been facing, i must ask though.. i will need to dynamat the car, where would you do? behind the doors, the rear quarters? etc. and ive been looking at this would it be up to the job?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-Sq-Ft-eDead-Original-Sound-Deadening-Dynamat-EDO01_W0QQitemZ330068777458QQihZ014QQcategoryZ1498QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
is dynamat really necessary on a supra? seems like the sound proofing is pretty good as it is...
Chiefgroover
03-01-07, 01:16
e Dead - thats interesting stuff. Deamat is essential to a sucessful speaker install. The Supra is crippled with road noise, so i refer you to my other writings.
Chiefgroover
03-01-07, 01:20
http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=89645&highlight=road+noise
Page 3 is missing, Ian C promised to post it, but he is probably lost in a compressor map somewhere.
If you need it p.m. me your email address and i'll send it.
p.s. trying to do a well installed system in a supra from scratch in one weekend? more chance of seeing a chicken playing a banjo!
Chiefgroover
03-01-07, 01:35
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHOENIX-GOLD-ZX600TI_W0QQitemZ250068209362QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4950QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This amp is excellent for subs, all the right features too!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHOENIX-GOLD-6-5-TITANIUM-ELITE-COMP-SPK-SYSTEM_W0QQitemZ130063548986QQihZ003QQcategoryZ18800QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Great front end, I have used these and they rock.
that speaker install word doc is very useful. no doubt will come in handy when time comes for my installations. the plan is no way to try and get it done in a weekend, will be taking all the time needed to make sure its done correctly. do you think 20sq ft of the e-dead dynamat thing will be enough? also i think ive found my front and rear speakers along with an amp.. let me know what you think:
rear speakers
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHOENIX-GOLD-OCTANE-R-COAXIAL-SPEAKERS-R5-0COAX-RRP-70_W0QQitemZ190067130242QQihZ009QQcategoryZ14941QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
front components
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190067130312&fromMakeTrack=true
amp to power the above
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160068107704&ih=006&category=18796
hows that looking?
will be taking a more detailed read into the noise reduction post when im a bit more awake :) - also chief if you can email it over, ill pm my ad.
Chiefgroover
03-01-07, 10:08
You need the bigger size in the rear speakers and the front.
Amp will do for the fronts and rears. What have you in mind for the sub?
E.Q. ? you dont want to be without!.
20sq ft will go a long way :)
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