View Full Version : Any heating engineers?
I think there's something wrong with our Comb boiler. When I turn the hot tap on the water is cold to begin with (as normal) it then slowly gets hot for like 30 secs and then goes stone cold and stays cold. Sometimes it doesn't get warm at all.
What could the problem be?
Also, there was no pressure showing on the gauge but the label next to the gauge says it should be between 1.0 and 2.5 bar. So I opened the stop valve thing that is on a flexible hose linking two pipes going into the bottom of the boiler and the pressure stated rising. I turned it off again when the pressure was showing 2 bar.
I know a little having had similar issues with mine.
The boiler will cut itself off if the pressure is too low, hence the heat/no heat thing. It's a safety feature.
Filling the system back to the correct pressure will probably cure it. Question is why it falls. Have you bled the radiators? Had the system drained down recently? Changed boilers/rads? Mine does seem to loose pressure and need a top up once a year.
Possible leak - put any photo frames up recently? :eyebrows:
I did that :(
Jake - Was your system cold when you pressurised it? If it was you will probably blow the safety valve when it heats up.
Not a big problem. Set it to 1 bar when cold.
You probably have either a small leak, it depends on how often you pressurise it, you will lose water from leaks on radiator valves without noticing as the water evaporates before you see it!
H.
Sounds like what happened to our last year... I think it was something in the boiler clogged up with limescale... heat exchange?
The plumber who sorted it is coming round tomorrow to fit a new towel rail so I'll ask him what it was.
Jake, has pressurising the central heating (ch) system cured your hot water problem ??
If it has then thats great - if it hasnt then turn the boiler to hot water only mode, turn on the hot water tap and see if the boiler fires up in this mode. You may have a problem with the divertor valve if it doesnt fire up.
What is the make and model
cheers
Ian
dangerous brain
20-12-06, 21:41
It could also be something as simple as a dodgy thermostat on the boiler. The pressure wont help the issue and that needed topping up which you have done. If the problem still persists check or get checked the thermostats or as they are pennies, there are 2 one is set to 88 degrees to prevent overboiling the other feeds a signal to the water temp selector on your boiler if it has that feature. The 88 degree one went on my boiler twice as they are pennies get 2 new ones and just replace them, its an easy job.
Thanks everyone. Strangely it's been ok ever since I posted on here.
dangerous brain
20-12-06, 22:14
The re-pressureising has fixed it then
Thanks everyone. Strangely it's been ok ever since I posted on here.
Thats the great thing about this forum, we have the ability to fix things by complete coincidence!!!:d
H.
I, too, managed to fix my boiler thanks to this forum.
Very nice indeed:)
Thats the great thing about this forum, we have the ability to fix things by complete coincidence!!!:d
H.
Can we fix mine (http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=93341) as well then? :please:
:cold: :notwork: :cold:
dangerous brain
21-12-06, 17:47
Whats the symptoms??
Can we fix mine (http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=93341) as well then? :please:
:cold: :notwork: :cold:
Yeah, tell us the problem and we'll remote fix it!!
H.
it does help if anyone needing advice quotes the make and model, it does help to perhaps give more accurate advice.
cheers
ian
seems like all is well, im a british gas eng for furture ref..
seems like all is well, im a british gas eng for furture ref..
We have a TOFFO in our midst (lol)
cheers
ian
Whats the symptoms??
Yeah, tell us the problem and we'll remote fix it!!
Like I said it's this thread:
http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=93341
I'm hoping to put curtains up this weekend, and try and get some insulation of some kind for the larder door (need to replace it though really).
Other than that I think my boiler was serviced about 9 months ago before we moved in. Could probably do with taking all the rads off and flushing them, then replacing/bleeding etc the whole lot!
Don't I then need to balance the system though? So I need 2 thermometers? How do I know which is the first radiator?
Like I said it's this thread:
http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=93341
I'm hoping to put curtains up this weekend, and try and get some insulation of some kind for the larder door (need to replace it though really).
Other than that I think my boiler was serviced about 9 months ago before we moved in. Could probably do with taking all the rads off and flushing them, then replacing/bleeding etc the whole lot!
Don't I then need to balance the system though? So I need 2 thermometers? How do I know which is the first radiator?
I'm sorry mate I don't know anyone down your neck of the woods.
Has they system ever heated the house properly whilst you've lived there? There could be so many things that it could be, poor insulation, draughts, radiators too small, boiler not big enough.!!!
Is it a one or two pipe system?
H.
Well we bought the house in June, and have only needed the heating on in the last month so I don't know if it worked before.
No idea how many pipes it is!!! :looney:
dangerous brain
23-12-06, 13:47
Like I said it's this thread:
http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=93341
I'm hoping to put curtains up this weekend, and try and get some insulation of some kind for the larder door (need to replace it though really).
Other than that I think my boiler was serviced about 9 months ago before we moved in. Could probably do with taking all the rads off and flushing them, then replacing/bleeding etc the whole lot!
Don't I then need to balance the system though? So I need 2 thermometers? How do I know which is the first radiator?
OK first things first here. What kind of boiler is it? I am assuming that its a combi boiler but it may of course not be. What kind of knobs has it got on it? It may be something as simple as the radiator water temperature selector on the boiler itself is left low if it has that facility (the guy that bought my house didn't figure that out so no laughing it does happen).
Next (without burning your hands) temp test all the rads in your house top and botom and see if there are temp differences from top to botom of the rads and if there are significant differences in different rooms. If there is a temp difference from top to bottom you have air in that radiator. I cant remember what it means if the rad temps drop along the systems length (I think its because the boiler isn't man enough for the system but I stand to be corrected here).
So a couple of things to do before you pay for an engineer (be a remortgage your house bill for a callout in the next couple of weeks)
This is always the problem when people move in the summer. I bought my first house during May a few years ago.
We got whacked by an enormous gas bill in the winter because the boiler and the radiators where too small for the house and subsequently the boiler never switched off because the house did not get warm enough.:(
There are sooooooo many things it could be..
Can you give us a bit of a description of the problems ie does the boiler run, are the pipes nearby hot? Do you have a thermostat on the wall somewhere?
H.
This is always the problem when people move in the summer.
H.
A wee bit of hindsight but !! its always a good idea (and money well spent) that when buying a house that you get the boiler and heating system professionally checked within the first 7 days.
This can save you a fortune when you get around to switching on the heating and then finding out that it isnt working properly.
We are finding that it is becoming a more common practice when buying a house that the solicitors/estate agents are insisting on getting the dhw/ch system checked within the statutory time limit for notification of problems, ie 7 days in Scotland.
But give us more info and we may manage to help
cheers
Ian
The new looking Baxi boiler in the kitchen doesn't seem to have any controls on it.
There's a thermostat on the landing, that clicks when the timer control is on - the timer control is one of these (but an older looking one):
http://www.avenuesupplies.co.uk/images/products/2095.jpg
So that's set to come on at say 4 in the morning, and the radiators are hardly hot by the time I get up at 6!!! they do get hot - the upstairs ones taking the longest - and they all have equal temps top and bottom.
One thing is we took the lounge radiator off to decorate, and bled it when we put it back on, but I later heard they need to be balanced???? A 12 degree difference from one side to the other????
There's also an emersion tank in the same cupboard as the timer control, the setting on it seems to adjust the temperature of the hot water from the taps, but the switch labelled 'water heater' that wires to the top of it has always been off! Is this just a hot water 'store'?
We have a TOFFO in our midst (lol)
cheers
ian
call me stupid but errr whats a TOFFO apart from them chewy sweets that come in a red packet.
like others hav said there could be many reasons for you troubles, pump, diverter valve, sludged pipes.
the switch labelled water heater on you hot water tank is the immersion switch, think of it as your emergency back up HW switch.
as for balancing, i wouldnt really worry about this 12 deg differnece, generally you want all the rads to heat up at approx the same time at the same temp.
make a note of the ones that currently get hottest first, then second etc.
go back round and shut the inlet valve (flow) side of all the rads, then open up approx 1/2 to 1 turn.
see how this works, you may then still have to open/close to fine adjust. its a bit of a black art sometimes.lol
also if you want a powerflush done then i can hook you up..:sly:
Where is the pump and can you hear it running??
There should be a 3 position switch on the side of it, alter the speed and see if there is a change in sound. These things are quiet but you should be able to tell if it's running or not.
Sounds like you have a "tank fed" system. There should be a header tank in the loft. Check if this is full of water as it is this water that forces the air out when you bleed the radiators.!!
You may have two tanks up there one will be for "hot water" and the other to the heating. Easy to tell which is which, when you run a hot tap the ball float in one will open.
We'll get there in the end mate!!;)
H.
Cheers Fargo, but do you mean the normal 'temperature' valve on the radiators? The one you change whenever you want one to come on or not? Or the one the other end that I've only ever used to close when taking a radiator off?
H, the pump's next to the tank, it's on position I (I - III) at the moment, what does this do then if I put it to II or III? There's also a flat head type turn slot (could fit a coin in it for example) on the front that obviously turns something as well - with an arrow pointing anti-clockwise around it?
H, the pump's next to the tank, it's on position I (I - III) at the moment, what does this do then if I put it to II or III? There's also a flat head type turn slot (could fit a coin in it for example) on the front that obviously turns something as well - with an arrow pointing anti-clockwise around it?
The switch with the I or II etc is the speed selector switch. Uusally speed II depending upon the size of the system. I take it the pump is running?. The more radiators you have generally the higher the speed the pump should be on. It will do no harm to knock it up a speed and see if the heat improves. Generally if the pump is on too low a speed, you will have two or three radiators that are hot and the others are gradually getting colder the further away they are from the boiler.
The bit on the top of the pump with the slot in is the bleed screw. You can undo this and see if there is any air trapped in the top of the pump. be careful as this is like bleeding the radiators and water will spurt out if there is no air trapped. If it has been installed properly there should be no air trapped as it should be mounted on its side and any air would congregate in the radiators.
What is the main problem with your system, are the radiators cold or just luke warm?
H.
They just seem to take ages to get hot, they all do eventually get hot but by that time the CH is shutting down!!
They just seem to take ages to get hot, they all do eventually get hot but by that time the CH is shutting down!!
Knock that pump up a speed and see if it improves. The system should only shut down when the house is warm. Might be a thermostat problem!! If the thermostat is in the warmest part of the house then the rest of the house will suffer.
If it is taking a long time to heat up it may be the boiler is too small for the number of radiators you have.
If there are no air locks then I would have a good look at the boiler, can you get the model number and give me a clue as to the number of rads you have.
Does your hot water seem fine?
H.
whats a TOFFO apart from them chewy sweets that come in a red packet.
It is what British Gas Engineers are affectionately known as within the plumbing and heating trade.
due to the fact that they normally Turn OFf and then F*ck Off.
But it is a term of affection though.
cheers
Ian
A 12 degree difference from one side to the other????
There's also an emersion tank in the same cupboard as the timer control, the setting on it seems to adjust the temperature of the hot water from the taps,
As Fargo said, I wouldnt concern myself about the 12 degree difference - this is just technical talk , most heating engineers are only concerned that the rads heat up.
This is your hot water cylinder, it will have an immersion heater which is turned on/off by an electrical switch, The other control on this is the hot water cylinder stat, which controls the temp of the hot water. very important that this is kept over 65 degrees to prevent legionella building up in your cylinder.
Did altering the pump speed as suggested by Harvard make any difference ?
Do you thermostatic radiator valves (trv's) on the side of the radiators ?
cheers
ian
The system should only shut down when the house is warm. Might be a thermostat problem!! If the thermostat is in the warmest part of the house then the rest of the house will suffer.
...can you get the model number and give me a clue as to the number of rads you have.
Does your hot water seem fine?
H.
The thermostat is on the landing outside the bathroom - usually the coldest part of the house!!!
It says it's a 'Baxi 3 solo PFL50', and radiators are 1 in each of the kitchen, hall, lounge, bedroom 1 and bedroom 2. None on the landing or bathroom.
Hot water is always hot when we need it, comes through after about 30 seconds of running the tap - and it's bloody hot!!! We have an electric shower though so don't use much hot water there (missus has baths maybe twice a week).
very important that this is kept over 65 degrees to prevent legionella building up in your cylinder.
This was set to 60, I think we put it down in summer because we couldn't physically touch the water coming out the hot tap!!!
I've just put it up to just over 65 - that might make a difference in itself I suppose!
Did altering the pump speed as suggested by Harvard make any difference ?
Haven't changed the pump speed yet, will do now. TBH the house is pretty warm now cos it's been on the weekend setting (on all day), and it's not so cold outside today, so I won't know if it helps until next week really.
The fact that it being a horribly cold day makes it worse suggests my bad insulation isn't helping!!
Do you thermostatic radiator valves (trv's) on the side of the radiators ?
A what now?
They have a knob on the left, that is just a tap to let the water into the rad, a knob on the right that I thought was to stop the water going evreywhere when removing a rad, and the bleed valve on the top right. No clever looking high tech gadgets though.
Cheers Fargo, but do you mean the normal 'temperature' valve on the radiators? The one you change whenever you want one to come on or not? Or the one the other end that I've only ever used to close when taking a radiator off?
if you have an adjustable temp type valve on one side then i mean the opposite site.
you may have sticky TRV's (rad temprature valves) the head usually comes off and you will see the pin on the valve, push this in and out to free it up.
They have a knob on the left, that is just a tap to let the water into the rad, a knob on the right that I thought was to stop the water going evreywhere when removing a rad, and the bleed valve on the top right. No clever looking high tech gadgets though.
doesn't sound as if you have trv's fiited, just the lockshield valves.
I would suggest as Harvard says - adjust the pump speed and see what difference this makes, if any, hopefully that's all that will be needed.
merry xmas
cheers
ian
Now it's got colder again this week, snow yesterday, about 0 outside this morning.
Heating on full - all radiators are HOT when I woke up - temperature on the landing is 16 degrees!!!!
Don't think it's inefficient heating now so much as bad insulation in the house (or simply that there aren't enough radiators or too small! - how much to fit a bigger system?).
Yeah Trev,
If the radiators are hot and the room isn't warm then it's one of those two!!
Have you got double glazing and an insulated loft??
I would bet on the radiators not being big enough. A lot of installers skimp on rads and buy the cheaper smaller ones.
In your hall way physically how big is the rad?? And is there one on the landing?? I need the dimensions and whether it is twin panel, single panel, with or without convector?? (the bit of metal that sits on the back?
I'll then tell you if it's big enough.
H.u
I can measure later, but I think it's lack of rads rather than size!!
Our house isn't small, average I'd say. Lounge is approximately 14' x 8', 2 bedrooms both about 10' square (one is slightly longer), bathroom is tiny though and a galley kitchen.
Rad in lounge is normal size (I can measure later if needed), but lounge stays warm when the doors closed, bedroom one has an older looking rad with a mesh across the top and 2 main 'plates', gets pretty hot but we never close any of the doors in the house except the lounge so it's hard to say. Second bedroom has a reasonably normal size rad too.
Kitchen rad is about the same IIRC.
There is no radiator on the landing or in the bathroom, there is one in the hall downstairs though.
I can get some better ideas of size later.
boromfccup
25-01-07, 10:59
mine goes cold and hot water, it pisses me off its a valliant, but its 18 years old,i think it the divertor valve, as i get hot rads ok, but hot water sheehite.
I'm so confused by systems as well - I can't see the pipes or where they go so I can't work out anything myself!
mine goes cold and hot water, it pisses me off its a valliant, but its 18 years old,i think it the divertor valve, as i get hot rads ok, but hot water sheehite.
Does sound like the three way valve. I would rather have an 18 year old Vailant than some of the new boilers that are coming out!! They reckon a 5 year lifespan for a combi now!!
H.
They reckon a 5 year lifespan for a combi now!!
H.
http://missions.blogsome.com/images/doh.jpg
My brand new (installed last week) heating system failed this morning! Argh! Lack of pressure in our Vaillant Ecotec 837...but I did the system fill and it started to work again...I'm a bit concerned by the if you do this whilst it's cold you'll blow the pressure valve comment on page 1...but hopefully it'll be ok.
We'd heard the rads making some noises last night, guessing some air was moving about, so I'll be buying a rad key today and rebleeding my brand new rads again tonight...
Joy.
Still I haven't paid for it yet...
How much was it, Alex? Did you fit it or get it done? Might need to see someone about adding a radiator or two and maybe an uprated system.
Does sound like the three way valve. I would rather have an 18 year old Vailant than some of the new boilers that are coming out!! They reckon a 5 year lifespan for a combi now!!
H.
Got to agree with Harvard. What with the acidic reaction in condensing boilers and most of the components made of plastic - the majority of new boilers are sh*te.
We look after thousands of 20 year+ combi boilers, but the current boilers are never going to be around for half of that time.
Cheers
Ian
My brand new (installed last week) heating system failed this morning! Argh! Lack of pressure in our Vaillant Ecotec 837...but I did the system fill and it started to work again...I'm a bit concerned by the if you do this whilst it's cold you'll blow the pressure valve comment on page 1...but hopefully it'll be ok.
We'd heard the rads making some noises last night, guessing some air was moving about, so I'll be buying a rad key today and rebleeding my brand new rads again tonight...
Joy.
Still I haven't paid for it yet...
Keep an eye on the pressure level for the next few weeks. If the pressure continues to drop - then you may have a leak in your ch system. If so get your installer back to check.
If your going to air your radiators then remember to repressurise your ch system back to approx 1.5 bars.
Get the man paid - no wonder us heating engineers never have any money !!!!!! (lol)
cheers
Ian
Ahhh fuck it....
It was a rad spilling it's guts out of a crush nut connection :cry:
Water had pissed out of it....twice. The carpet's soaked...didn't notice it as the rad is hidden.
Got in last night and found the pressure had gone again so went round to all the rads to shut them off....stepped in a load of wet and thought "Ummm this isn't right" (understatement of the year). Worked out where the leak was coming from and tightened the crush nut up...bit pee'd off mainly with myself for not spotting it yesterday morning.
Refilled the system and bled the rads...pressure spiked up to 2.8bar pretty quickly, so I learnt how to bleed it pretty quickly!! It's now been at 1.8bar for 12hrs....and no new leaks, might lower it to 1.5bar later, but I thought if it can hold a higher pressure for a bit with no new leaks I was on to a winner. (book says 1-2bar so I'm inside the operating limits....and it will handle upto 2.5bar.)
The guy that installed it hasn't finished and has pissed off to Austria for a week which has made things a bit more tricky, so that's why he's not been paid and that's also why I had to learn how to fix it.
It cost me £3600. That's for Vaillant Ecotec 837, 8 rads (2 in new locations) removal of old system inc hot tank, running a new kitchen sink drain and running new spurs for a shower from the combi...as and when we're ready to do the bathroom. Oh and I nearly forgot he's replaced all the gas pipes going into the bungalow from the meter, because we want to dig up the old one under the kitchen floor.
He's got to comeback, drain down the system as we've decided to clean it for 2 weeks before inhibiting a fresh supply, and he's got to do the kitchen sink drain, but the rest was done in 4 days with a mate to help.
The rad that had the failure was down to poor installation, the same rad pissed water out of the top nut and bleed nut the first time we added water to it. I probably wouldn't care usually but it's now soak the foot of some very expensive pine furniture...
I'll be having a chat with him when he's back from Austria...fingers crossed it's all ok when I ge back tonight!!!
I chose the Vaillant 837 because the 835Max had just gone end of life....I chose the biggest bastards because I wanted to ensure that we could run a shower off it, and not need a tank with a pump. This one can run upto 15lpm but our mains flow isn't quite that high so it could have been better but I still think it's going to give us a good enough shower. I chose Vaillant for the 5year guarenteed Stainless Steel heat exchanger...and the build quality full stop.
The rads are Ideal Stelrad Compacts. These are really good looking and pump out a hell of a lot of BTU's for their size.
HTH :)
Fingers crossed it all works perfectly from now on!!!
Although the standards in combi's are falling you will not get better than Vailant imo!!
I bought a Gloworm last Christmas as our 4 year old Ideal boiler packed in with a failed heat exchanger. The boiler actuially failed two years before but we could never get to the bottom of the problem. Eventually a small leak inside the boiler was its undoing. Unfortunately, the water we were losing was flashing off as steam out of the boiler flue!! I had spent two years looking for leaks on my system, under the floors etc
Heating systems are a PITA. Better than being cold though!!
H.
Here's a quick paint drawing of my house from memory - haven't measured though!!
The red bits are the rads and the blue bits are sources of cold!!
There's no door between the hall and kitchen, and the kitchen has a larder of which the door is always cold (insulated round the edges though), and the back door is pretty cold as it's an old wooden type - I've done my best but we still get draughts underneath it (and through the cat flap!!).
Front door now has a curtain over it which helps.
Upstairs the thermostat is on the wall on the right as you come out the bathroom.
Drawing it like that makes it seem like we have hardly any radiators!!
Can you add the thermostat and boiler positions in?
Hot air rises....so the upstairs will heat up first..and heat the stat up earlier than you want. You'd be better off with the stat right behind the door in the lounge on the right hand wall.
This week the stat has been set to 22, and we have a thermometer underneath the stat that reads 16 pretty much all the time!!!
Last week it was a bit warmer outside and the temp on the thermometer was reading 21-22 the same as the stat.
I've been laying 170mm insulation ontop of the thin layer of rockwool that was in the loft already (bungalow remember so a big loft space). It's made a noticable difference to the coldest room (which was the one that had the leak)...
In total my insulation in the loft is 20+cm's thick...and as I bought it from B&Q instead of 81sqM costing £300 it cost £150 as it was on offer....might still be...your loft won't be so vast.
Next I'm getting the cavity wall insulation done...this will make another improvemtent...I want to get to the point where I don't use the heating for most of the year. This reduces my bills and the strain on the boiler, hopefully helping it live longer.
This week the stat has been set to 22, and we have a thermometer underneath the stat that reads 16 pretty much all the time!!!
Last week it was a bit warmer outside and the temp on the thermometer was reading 21-22 the same as the stat.
If your heating system isn't powerful enough it's understandable that it can't heat things up when it's cold, my old system was like this. BUT, it did nearly cope with the extra insulation in the roof in place.
Nice big summer job for me then!!!
Was planning to board out the loft anyway so I can get some more wool while I do that.
Need to find out about wall insulation as well - especially the outside wall (end of terrace).
Nice big summer job for me then!!!
Was planning to board out the loft anyway so I can get some more wool while I do that.
Need to find out about wall insulation as well - especially the outside wall (end of terrace).
Do it now for 3 reasons.
1) It's hot sweaty work even in winter (trust me I did it over Xmas)...and had to keep stopping as I was dripping in sweat.
2) You'll have better things to do in the summer ;)
3) You'll start to make some money back on the insulation...as it will be cold through Feb and March....
Need to put some timbers up there though before I board it over, and I don't fancy cutting a hole in the spare room ceiling - so it's roof tile removal unfortunately - which I don't fancy doing in winter!!!
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