View Full Version : Help! Mot Failure!
Kevin Huntley
15-05-03, 14:40
Please help guys! I have got my car in for its MOT today and its failed on emissions. The guy at the garage says my Lamba reading is 1.08 and it should be > 1.03 and my CO reading is 0.60 and it should >0.30 He says the car is running rich!
Just so you know I am fully CW decat with Blitz stainless steel exhaust, HKS EVC IV boost controller and Apexi air filter! I am also using Optimax and have been using millers recently but not at this fill up.
I have had just the rear CAT replaced for the MOT. The guy say's he is going to put the front cat back on as well and give it another go but he does'nt think that will make any difference!
Any ideas!
Thanks
Kevin
Just get him to make sure the cats are warmed up properly.
Kevin Huntley
15-05-03, 15:05
Tried that! I have now asked him to reset the ecu, pull fuse's EF1 & EF2 while engine is off, if I remember correctly! Finders crossed that will work
I had the same problem, in the end turned out the O2 sensor had gone - got a new one from CW :)
Kev when was the last time the spark plugs were changed ?
Just thinking that if there were quite old the spark may not be quite so strong and things may not be igniting as they should and causing problems with the emissions. Only thing is that if you had that sort of problem i would have thought you'd of noticed it in driving by now.
Gaz Walker
15-05-03, 15:35
Told you that shed would never pass the MOT! ;)
Only j/k mate :D
Gaz
Kevin Huntley
15-05-03, 15:50
Originally posted by Jap Exotics
Told you that shed would never pass the MOT! ;)
Only j/k mate :D
Gaz
If you had not been off sunning yourself in Exotic locations I would not have to be going through this trauma!
[i]Kev when was the last time the spark plugs were changed ?[/B]
Hi Martin, I have never changed the plugs since I owned the car which is 3 1/2 years now. I was told they were good for 60,000
miles.
I am changing them at this service though! When he took the car around for the test this morning he had not changed the plugs. So hopefully now he will caryout and complete the service and then go around for the re-test.
Fingers crossed it will pass!
Gaz Walker
15-05-03, 16:21
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
If you had not been off sunning yourself in Exotic locations I would not have to be going through this trauma!
Oh thats right blame me! ;)
Hehehe
Gaz.
Kevin Huntley
15-05-03, 16:39
Just been back on to the Garage and there going to keep the car overnight! I thought it was a bit ambitious doing an MOT, Timming Belt and service all in one day!
It is due the re-test in the morning so we shall see how it gets along after the service and ecu re-set!
They also forgot to mention that the rear fog light also does not work! I have never used the foglight on the car so how does it work? and before anyone says it dose'nt work because you have JAP spec lights on it I changed them back to the UK lights for the MOT.
Any ideas what could be wrong, b4 Toyota attempt to rip me off!
T/C fuse won't be affecting my emmisions, or will it?
Gaz Walker
15-05-03, 16:48
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
They also forgot to mention that the rear fog light also does not work! I have never used the foglight on the car so how does it work? and before anyone says it dose'nt work because you have JAP spec lights on it I changed them back to the UK lights for the MOT.
Button to the right of the steering wheel with the foglight logo on it? ;)
Gaz.
Or it could be like my J-spec NA and the fogs are operated by twisting a ring on the right hand lights stem......:p
Kevin Huntley
15-05-03, 17:43
Originally posted by Jap Exotics
Button to the right of the steering wheel with the foglight logo on it? ;)
Gaz.
You must have to have the lights on b4 it works aswell!
Kev
what year is the car ?????
john:flame Dev
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
Just been back on to the Garage and there going to keep the car overnight! I thought it was a bit ambitious doing an MOT, Timming Belt and service all in one day!
I don't think its too ambitious .............................
but it is a nice night for a drive.............
MONKEYmark
15-05-03, 21:33
get parked outside there garage make sure they dont go for a blast.
or check mileage.is there not no mot freindly stations.
i thought it a bit weird them reving car to warm cat up when i had mine done.my car had been on for 40 mins when i got mine done last year.i was even helping mot bloke testing brakes and lights out when it was on the rollers.
there will be ways round things
mine from last year with blitz nurspec and blitz middle de cat
fast idle test
speed 2350 2650 /min
co 0.3 (limit) 0.07 % (actual value)
hc 200 ppm (limit) 13 ppm (actual value)
lambada 0.97 1.03 (limit) 1.00 (actual value)
natural idle test
speed 550 750 /min
co 0.5 %vol (limit) 0.02 %vol (actual value)
Why modify the car to revert back for the MOT, waste of time and money.
Just keep it right for the MOTin the first place.
I will let you know if I see your car on the road, lol
Terminator
15-05-03, 23:00
Originally posted by usman786
Why modify the car to revert back for the MOT, waste of time and money.
Just keep it right for the MOTin the first place.
:eek: PMSL
Terminator
15-05-03, 23:04
Kevin, how much Millers did you use, and was it in the tank when you put the cat back in? A Millars overdose can kill a cat.
Originally posted by usman786
Why modify the car to revert back for the MOT, waste of time and money.
Just keep it right for the MOTin the first place.
we have our reasons
Kevin Huntley
16-05-03, 10:05
Originally posted by dudersvr
Kev
what year is the car ?????
john:flame Dev
Hi John the car is a "96" N reg.
[i]Kevin, how much Millers did you use, and was it in the tank when you put the cat back in? A Millars overdose can kill a cat. [/B]
Hi Phil, I put 2 bottles of millers in the fill up before last but I ran it right down so the light was on and nearly empty before filling it up this time!
I going to give them a ring now and find out whats going on, I will have to go up there myself and try and sort it out if it still does not pass!
I would'nt discount them going for a spin in it either as last time there was money left on the rear seat and I never carry passengers! So looks like the took the whole showroom out for a spin in it!
Thanks for your help guys
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
I would'nt discount them going for a spin in it either as last time there was money left on the rear seat and I never carry passengers! So looks like the took the whole showroom out for a spin in it!
:mad: :twak: :angry:
I have not had this but, would be well pi$$ed if I found out!
I always clear my Peak settings on my boost/EGT gauges before it goes in and make a note of the mileage when I park up.
Not that I don't trust them or anything.......
Kevin Huntley
16-05-03, 10:31
Originally posted by Peter Sharp
:mad: :twak: :angry:
I have not had this but, would be well pi$$ed if I found out!
I always clear my Peak settings on my boost/EGT gauges before it goes in and make a note of the mileage when I park up.
Not that I don't trust them or anything.......
As part of the service schedule they are meant to take the car for a test drive so It is difficult to avoid it really! Although the last time I was there it was only in for an alarm unit exchange so quite why they needed to take it for a drive is beyond me!
I have just spoke to them now and they are in the process of fixing the fog light now and then they are going to take it round for another go at the MOT, Fingers crossed! If they charge me something like 2 hours labour @ £40 odd quid an hour to fix my fog light I will be well p**sed off!
Gaz Walker
16-05-03, 10:45
You can request they dont take the car anywhere...
I would be well pissed if there was people out in the car (esp more than just the mechanic). See how far they went, if its more than a couple of miles, really kick off and see how much discount you can get.
Gaz.
Kevin Huntley
16-05-03, 14:50
Just spoke to the garage and they have taken it around for the MOT emmisions test again and its failed again! They carried out the full service replaced the spark plugs, and reset the ECU. They have let it warm up but it still failed. They still only put the rear CAT on!
I have told them to do the voltage test on the Lambda sensor to see if thats knackered!
Next thing to try if the Lambda sensor is not knackered is to replace the front CAT and try that!
Anyone got any other ideas what could be up as I am just about out of things to try!
Did you manage to get the new figures from the readouts. I thought its best to have the front cat on and not the second. Or just bung both of them back on in the first place?
Originally posted by eyefi
we have our reasons
Yeah, I know how serious you guys are about your cars.
When I went to order brake disks from the dealer, the guy in the parts department came out to look at the vin number in person, Then he goes to me 'these are fast' they had a import TT in last week, they took it out for a spin and were doing 95mph just before the lights.
I know where NOT to take my car to for repairs. The best place to take it is somewhere where they don't mind you hanging around and watching while they work.
Usman
PS hope your emissions on your car get sorted. Have you taken it to another place for a second opinion, they may be taking you for a ride
MONKEYmark
16-05-03, 16:56
that sounds bad them taking someone out in the car. you can imagine them putting there foot down to see what it will do. i so dis trust garages. would sooner take it somewhere like leon or cw. when i had my mot done they had some rollers where you could check brakes out on rollers.it never needed to go out of the workshop. the last test on list was what i was dredding, the emissions.mine failed first time he tried but he had a work around it. i would try another garage if you could.
i remember i had my front cat close to the turbo still in and had the middle cat out.
if you need could dig out my old cat to try
Chris Wilson
16-05-03, 17:20
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
Just spoke to the garage and they have taken it around for the MOT emmisions test again and its failed again! They carried out the full service replaced the spark plugs, and reset the ECU. They have let it warm up but it still failed. They still only put the rear CAT on!
I have told them to do the voltage test on the Lambda sensor to see if thats knackered!
Next thing to try if the Lambda sensor is not knackered is to replace the front CAT and try that!
Anyone got any other ideas what could be up as I am just about out of things to try!
Front O2 sensor has probably died, I keep them in stock as a rule, would have to check if you were wanting one like NOW. It's the only reason you'd ccare to hear about that explains what's happening. They should sail through on just the rear cat, I have had some that scrape through with none..
Kevin Huntley
16-05-03, 18:24
OK cars now back from its MOT and it has still failed despite having both CATS in and Lambdaa sensor is working fine.
Toyota garage response is you will have to take it to a performance specialist as we can't help you any more! Like WTF offer to service it and MOT if they can't fix it if anything goes wrong :flame Dev
I would'nt care I have a Toyota (£600 a year) warrenty that covers MOT failure all you pay is £30 for your MOT and they sort out all the problems to get it through. Bullsh*t they have charged me to repair my fog light! Its a good job the service manager was'nt there when I returned as I would commited a crime I was explained my bill by the cleaning lady can you belive it!
Never again I am through with Toyota dealerships! I am so Pi**ed off! And to round it all off my air bag light is now on and they actualy had the cheek to charge me for my MOT!
you should take matters further if you have a agreement. They have to get it through no matter what it takes, even a new engine if it says so in the contract.
Gaz Walker
16-05-03, 19:18
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
Never again I am through with Toyota dealerships! I am so Pi**ed off! And to round it all off my air bag light is now on and they actualy had the cheek to charge me for my MOT!
Cheeky sods!
The Airbag light is a PITA to turn off, make them do it. They have to charge you for the MOT (money goes to government) but I would really kick off about the rear lights.
Toyota dont like their image tarnished, just start shouting accusations in the dealership (you've broke my bloody car and Im gonna write to toyota about this blah blah blah) you'll soon see how quick things get done :D
Gaz.
MONKEYmark
16-05-03, 19:21
its bad when you cant trust the main dealers to do work on one of there cars. its not if its a j spec or anything, they cant pull the line we will have to buy japanes manuals or parts.
hope you get it sorted.
kick up a fuss or they wont learn from there mistakes. write to there area manager.
What a bunch of ar$eholes.
As others have said i'd go back and kick up a fuss, tell them you want a refund of your extended warranty fees. Think i would arrange to go back when the service manager was there.
If they are breaching the terms of the Toyota agreement contact the Toyota customer services dept.
Just check before you go into one that they won't pick up the costs of you getting the problem sorted elsewhere.
Kevin Huntley
17-05-03, 11:37
Ok guys, just got back from the dealership and I spoke to the service manager who has apologised and is going to put a warranty claim in and do the repair to get it through its MOT. I feel a bit bad now as physked myself up for it and I think I really rattled his cage.
He put up a bit of resitance but could not denie the facts in front of him, he ended up telling me how he was having a really bad week and that he was stressed and sick due to short staffing. I thought he was going to break down at one point so I took it easy with him after that!
The parts are ordered and its going in on Wednesday to get fixed! So I guess thats a result!
I will let everone know how I get a long woth re-test hopefully the new O2 sensor will sort it!
Thanks guys for all your help, this is why the BBS is worth the membership! I am sure there are lots of people being conned everday by dealerships through a lack of knowledge, I am now not one of them!
Gaz Walker
17-05-03, 11:48
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
He put up a bit of resitance but could not denie the facts in front of him, he ended up telling me how he was having a really bad week and that he was stressed and sick due to short staffing. I thought he was going to break down at one point so I took it easy with him after that!
lmao... classic.
Glad they sorted themselves out in the end :)
Gaz.
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
He put up a bit of resitance but could not denie the facts in front of him, he ended up telling me how he was having a really bad week and that he was stressed and sick due to short staffing. I thought he was going to break down at one point so I took it easy with him after that!
You don't think it had anything to do with the AK47 you were holding in your hand do you ? :p
Good result Kev, it so often pays to stand firm on some issues.
Originally posted by usman786
When I went to order brake disks from the dealer, the guy in the parts department came out to look at the vin number in person, Then he goes to me 'these are fast' they had a import TT in last week, they took it out for a spin and were doing 95mph just before the lights.
:eek: usman - What dealership was this? I', in Manchester and don't want to be taking the car to the wrong place if I can avoid it. You can pm me if you don't want to name names on here.
Don't like to mention names but the one in Stockport
Usman786
Hi Kev, hope your well.
Don't mean to rub it in but I've just had my local garage do a cambelt change and an MOT last Friday. I told them they will have to replace my second cat before the emissions test so left it in the boot.
They picked up my car from my house in the morning, changed the Cambelt, MOT'd it and drove it back to my house so it was on my drive when I got back from work.
They said they they didn't replace the de-cat pipe, they just "Got it through".
All in £168. Very impressed.
Hope yours is sorted soon, never been one for Toyota Dealers.
oops. Double post:stupid:
If your O2 sensor is buggered can it hurt anything? Reason I ask is that I know my emissions test last year with both cats still in the CO2 level was right on the limit (and I was under the impression it should sail through). So might my sensor be on the way out? Now I've got both cats out and taking it to a friendly MOT tester, I'm a bit worried that if the sensor is buggered I might never find out and it could be causing problems.
How much was a new sensor anyway? and where is it?
Kevin Huntley
19-05-03, 18:45
OK Guys, I must be unluckiest person in the world at the moment! I got a call this morning from the Toyota dealer saying everything was OK and the warrenty would pay for the new O2 sensor + labour and they made room in their schedule on Wednesday to fit the job in.
Going OK so far wrong! The guy calls me back at ten to five and tells me the O2 sensors are on back order and they have had to order one from Japan which will take about 3 weeks WTF is going on! I now have a car which runs out of MOT in a week and my car is going to be off the road waiting for this bl**Dy part! What are Toyota playing at, surely they should have some stock in the UK!
Never will I again go through this hassle! time to find a more friendly MOT tester!
Thorin - The sensor is about £140 + 1 hours labour to fit it which at Toyotas prices will be sky high!
I think Chris Wilson usually has a couple of sensors on the shelf (as it seems like it's becomming quite common to go now). Give him a ring.
Paul Laing
19-05-03, 19:13
Kevin come to my uncles garage, he'll try his best to sort the MOT out for you. He did my Saxo when i had it and that wouldn't go through. But he played about with it, and got it working.
Wanna give it a go mate???
Kevin Huntley
19-05-03, 19:41
Originally posted by Thorin
I think Chris Wilson usually has a couple of sensors on the shelf (as it seems like it's becomming quite common to go now). Give him a ring.
Thanks, Thorin I have spoken to Chris about the sensors and I could go that route, but It should be replaced under warranty for free as I have paid into the warranty for three years and I may as well get some use from it!
I spoke to Toyota about buying the part of Chris but they say the warranty only permits them to buy genuine parts, unflexible as usual!
[i]Kevin come to my uncles garage, he'll try his best to sort the MOT out for you. He did my Saxo when i had it and that wouldn't go through. But he played about with it, and got it working.
Wanna give it a go mate???[/B]
Thanks for the offer Paul, but I already know a few people who could get it through but I took it Toyota and paid my £30 quid for the MOT which under the warranty should be all it costs me to get the car through regardless of what wrong with it. In hindsight I should just took it to one of my mates and got it through which would have saved me a lot of inconvenience, but hindsight is a wonderfull thing:(
I was honestly expecting the car to walk the MOT as its running like a dream and as anyone who has seen will testify in mint condition!
Paul Laing
20-05-03, 13:19
it'll just be a minor problem, it'll be sorted soon and you'll be flying around again!!!
On the next mini meet you'll have to see my new exhaust, sounds gorgeous!!!
Is yours 2 1/2" pipe all the way through mate?
Kevin Huntley
24-05-03, 12:37
The "Saga" continues! :( I have just had the car in to Toyota to have the first O2 sensor replaced and the car has still failed its MOT!
I also obtained a copy of the MOT emmisions result sheet and it turns out the CO emmisions are way OTT.
Fast Idle Test
CO 9.90 SHOULD BE <0.30
HC 330 SHOULD BE <200
Second Fast Idle Test
CO 6.93 SHOULD BE <0.30
HC 1.98 SHOULD BE <200 Pass
Natural Idle Test
CO 6.87 SHOULD BE <0.30
Any ideas what I could try now and why the car could be running so rich?
My MODS are in current state CATS IN!
FCD (PETE BETTS)
HKS IV BOOST CONTROLLER
SS HKS DUMP VALVE
APEXI AIR FILTER
RLTC
APEXI BOOST GAUGE
If anyone has any ideas or suggestions they would be appreciated, it looks like I am going to turn the hole car back to stock just incase an assesor comes out from the warrenty company!
Thanks all!:eek:
I think i would start looking for boost\air leaks. If you have a leak somewhere your car can start to run rich.
May want to check around the EGR system as this is a favourite on our UK specs.
Have you thought about putting the stock air box back on?
Kevin Huntley
24-05-03, 16:30
Originally posted by Bobbeh
Have you thought about putting the stock air box back on?
I think thats the next thing I am going to try, that and replacing the stock BOV.
I have read a few articles on Supraforums and when ever there has been a post about a car running rich it seems to have an HKSBOV fitted, so I am a bit suspious, maybe they don't work to well on the UK cars with the MAF sensor!
Fingers crossed!
I will also look for loose pipes while I am at it, but my boost readings seem about normal on my Apexi boost gauge!
Thanks
Originally posted by Kevin Huntley
I think thats the next thing I am going to try, that and replacing the stock BOV.
I have read a few articles on Supraforums and when ever there has been a post about a car running rich it seems to have an HKSBOV fitted, so I am a bit suspious, maybe they don't work to well on the UK cars with the MAF sensor!
Mine runs perfectly with one.
I would go with the leak theory. I have seen my car with a boost leak being measured with a Motec wideband and it ran way off the mark, really rich.
I wonder if your HKS BOV is leaking air, i.e. not closing properly.
Has anybody adjusted it for you ?
Chris Wilson
24-05-03, 19:27
Originally posted by Martin F
I wonder if your HKS BOV is leaking air, i.e. not closing properly.
Has anybody adjusted it for you ?
I concur, a vac leak before the AFM will cause it to run mad rich, and boy, it IS mad rich :-) BOV or piping to it are likely candidates, as is the EGR stuff, which needs ripping off anyway <G>
Kevin Huntley
24-05-03, 23:15
Thanks for the advice guys, I spent about 2 hours checking every hose in the engine bay to see if they were loose or split and I came up with nothing! I have swaped the HKS BOV for the standard unit and I will take it to get the emissions tested again on Tuesday.
I have noticed there is a slight fluttering noise every now and again coming from the BOV could this be a sign that it is not operating correctly!
Thanks
Kevin Huntley
24-05-03, 23:17
Originally posted by Martin F
I wonder if your HKS BOV is leaking air, i.e. not closing properly.
Has anybody adjusted it for you ?
How do you adjust the HKS BOV? I just fitted it and ran with it!
Chris Wilson
24-05-03, 23:23
For test purposes remove it altogether and blank off all hoese to it.
Manual says in order to check if co and hc are high
restricted air filter
faulty sfi system
faulty fuel pressure requlator clogged fuel return line
defective ect switch
faulty ecm
faulty injector
faulty throttle position sensor
faulty air flow meter
The ect (water temp sensor) is what causes most problems on the audi a6 and i know ours are completely different but it might be worth a try, if you want i can give you test specs to try on different sensors. Good luck.
Kevin Huntley
27-05-03, 23:26
OK, guys I switched the HKS BOV & Pipework for the standard BOV and pipework and took it to a different garage to have the emmisons tested guess what? It failed again so its not that:(
I also had an argument with the Aon Warranty group today who are trying there hardest to get out of paying for the work! They said I had gone over the permitted mileage and guess what I had by 122 miles! Anyway I got home and decided to go through my paperwork and discovered that after renewing my warranty last year the expiry milage on my 2003 certificate was exactly the same as my expiry on my 2002 certificate so they had forgot to increase the mileage by another 10,000 miles. I rang them up and pointed this out and they said to get the garage to call back tommorow and they will approve the repairs, we will see :devil:
Hope my car is back on the road soon, this getting traumatic:(
Thanks
Kevin
I would be traumatic if I had a 6sp TT on UK spec and couldn't drive it...
Gaz Walker
29-05-03, 00:01
Originally posted by Bobbeh
Believe me, it sucks :D
;)
Gaz.
Kevin Huntley
01-06-03, 19:57
Hi All, just to update you I have had a rather frustrating weekend. I met up with Michel (who also owns a UK spec car, for those of you who don't know). We tried exchanging a few parts and we have now ruled out the PCV valve and the MAF sensor, we also looked for any visible boost leaks.
I did however notice that if the car was left idoling for fifteen minutes the engine note would change and a small amount of black smoke started to come out of the exhaust (maybe when the fan kicked in). I also noticed the car seemed to be missing when held at between 2-3000 rpm. Has anybody come across these symptoms before?? or does this thro anymore light on the potential problem??
I am going to try exchanging the EFI water temp sensor next to see if this is causing the car to run rich.
PS. This is Kev's girlfriend typing this for him cos he is so sick of typing himself now, can somebody please help he is driving me nuts!!! : )
Thanks
Paul Laing
01-06-03, 22:13
Hi Kev, sorry to hear your still having problems. Seems like we all are at the moment, this suspension/rear knock thing is really starting to *** me off now like! Iv'e been without the car now for nearly 2 weeks!!!!!!! Driving around in an Astra Coupe is soooo boring!
Anyway i'm getting Simon to check the problem out on tuesday so hopefully it'll be sorted soon.
Hope yours gets sorted soon mate, then we'll have to have a meetup
Paul
Kev,
Just wondered what happened and whether you got to the bottom of this?
Broken connection on one of your sensors/vacuum or boost leak?
Did the warranty company pay for it all?
Dan
Kevin Huntley
25-01-04, 23:50
Hi Dan, heres what I posted on another thread at the time about the same problem:
""Right the problem was Ignition feed to the ECU which had been severed and was down to two strands of wire, this was causing the ECU to receive less voltage than the 12 volts necessary to operate. As the ECU has no way of flagging up a light for this problem it could not be detected by Toyotas diagnostic equipment. As the ECU was not getting the correct power it was not performing correctly which resulted in the emmisions problem.""
""The probale cause appears to be through the wire been probed to test it for one reason or another which is normaly fine to do with care but someone was obviously been a bit enthusiast when probeing this wire resulting in the said damage.""
I ended up paying to have the problem fixed as oppose to a warranty claim.
You can find out more info on the problem on this thread ""Every sensor has been tested on the car and ruled out two things left, Opinions?""
Hope that helps
Kevin
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