View Full Version : EMS Tuning
I field quite a few questions and concerns from UK Supra owners asking about how to control larger injectors and turbo upgrades. The common thread seems to be they are told locally in the UK to use a Greddy Emanage or AEM EMS. The Emanage cant do speed density and the AEM is way overkill for most setups.
Just to let everyone know that we do still have the MAP ECU and it works well on UK spec cars with the hotwire MAF meter. Most of the setups we sell in the USA now consist of a PHR Stage 1 turbo system, PHR Stage 2 fueling kit, and MAP ECU for control of both. Its simple and cheap, and it works! We have literally hundreds of maps with different combinations available to email you so you just have to download the map and drive the car. Of course its always preferred to run the car on a rolling road to check the tune and A/F, but these will get you darn close.
Just to give you guys another option....
Jarrett,
I can tell you that several Supras here are using the MAP ECU. We often ship them, but we do also ship a good number of E-manages, Ultimates, and AEM ECU's. Usually depends on what their tuner prefers. I think the MAP ECU is the best piggyback on the market for ease of setup and control.
Regards,
Dusty
One thing to remember is that there are less than 500(or even less) UK spec cars left on the road over here and most are Jap imports. People go for the Emanage for injector and timing control. I run the MapECU by the way and find it very easy to use
Yep, a rough estimate for the UK Supra market would be 90% JDM import cars with MAP sensors rather than MAF sensors. We need a good standalone or piggyback ECU package with all required harnesses / sensors that will work well with these cars. So far, this seems to mean the E-manage Ultimate especially for owners of auto's since the likes of the Apexi Power FC is only for manuals and tuners here have problems making the AEM work with autos.
Maybe you guys could offer a complete E-Manage Ultimate solution as a package with all required harnesses and perhaps the copy fields harness?
Cheers,
Brian.
Dragonball
25-08-06, 07:44
Have you guys found the same 'problems' with AEM / EMU mapping on autos over there?
One thing to remember is that there are less than 500(or even less) UK spec cars left on the road over here and most are Jap imports. People go for the Emanage for injector and timing control. I run the MapECU by the way and find it very easy to use
Emanage costs 2x what the MAP ECU does by the time you buy all the sensors and harnesses. Per my other thread, you dont even need ignition timing control and to adjust it on any modified Supra under 800 BHP is a waste of time. The MAP ECU can EASILY do the Jspec Supra with the MAP sensor, I've already done some myself. It was easier to tune than hotwire MAF because the map is a simple rising scale. Instead of tapping into the MAF signal, you let the MAP ECU provide the MAP sensor signal instead with the green wire. There is no reason any Supra in the UK, aside from a few 800+ BHP cars, should be even considering modifying ignition timing, unless they want to lose HP and torque!
Yep, a rough estimate for the UK Supra market would be 90% JDM import cars with MAP sensors rather than MAF sensors. We need a good standalone or piggyback ECU package with all required harnesses / sensors that will work well with these cars. So far, this seems to mean the E-manage Ultimate especially for owners of auto's since the likes of the Apexi Power FC is only for manuals and tuners here have problems making the AEM work with autos.
Maybe you guys could offer a complete E-Manage Ultimate solution as a package with all required harnesses and perhaps the copy fields harness?
Cheers,
Brian.
Its already here.. The MAP ECU with our plug and play harness fits the Jspec Supra with the MAP sensor and works like a charm. The MAP ECU can do control over MAF meter, Karman Vortex, Flap, Frequency, and MAP sensors. I've already got maps for a Jspec Supra running on PHR 850cc injectors, I can email it to anyone. DONE!
Have you guys found the same 'problems' with AEM / EMU mapping on autos over there?
Dont get me started on the AEM EMS on an auto car.... I'd trust a Toyota ECU with $10 million in development to run my auto box anyday over an AEM with its cryptic "works sometimes" approach.
I DONT want to start any AEM versus MAP ECU thread over here, its been debated over and over and over again in the US forums. What I am trying to do is simply offer up a simple, cheap, cost effective solution to you all that works well and has been proven. There are many EMS systems out there on the market in the UK, and many tuners with pro-EMS attitudes. But my point is that for probably 80% of the cars out there with simple mods, you dont need ignition timing control or a full EMS system.
Surely ignition timing is important for the parts of the map where your aftermarket single is making more boost than the stock twins??! Especially considering our 98RON fuel (93MON?).
Cheers,
Brian.
Surely ignition timing is important for the parts of the map where your aftermarket single is making more boost than the stock twins??! Especially considering our 98RON fuel (93MON?).
Cheers,
Brian.
Parts of the map where your single is making more boost than stock twins? What do you mean?
Our fuel is 91-93 octane (MON) maximum. And we run 1.2-1.3 BAR all day long, every single day, for the last 10 years.
But my point is that for probably 80% of the cars out there with simple mods, you dont need ignition timing control or a full EMS system.
I can not tell you the number of times I've said those exact words. I am an Authorzed Dealer for MAP ECU, Greddy (E-manage Ultimate), and AEM. If someone wants to spend the money with me on the AEM that is certainly fine with me. However, in most cases, it is "overkill" for their goals as far down the road as we can see.
USA guys are the worst, its like the "want" to spend $3,000+ on an AEM, accessories, and tuning so they can make 600 at the tyres.
If you are on a budget for tuning up your Supra, your money is much better spent on a proper fuel system than it is an AEM unless you have big goals like Jarrett is talking about.
You can have a proper fuel system and a MAP ECU, installed and tuned, for the same price or less than a full AEM setup.
If you are not on a budget or really want to plan for the future, then I see the point to an AEM.
Regards,
Dusty
What about ignition timing changes where the single is off boost or not shifting anything like the airflow of the sequential twins? People see good gains here in torque, spool and low speed driveability with added ignition advance below their boost thresholds.
I'm not trying to stir things up here, I'm genuinely interested in the <800bhp/ignition timing opinion.
Dragonball
25-08-06, 18:42
I suspect that a lot of Jap spec AUTO drivers will be interested in knowing WHICH is the best way to map the car with small(ish) single set-ups that are within the stock tranny box capabilities
I cant rememeber the exact %'s of manual to auto set-ups - but the Jap spec auto is (I believe) the far more prevalent over here
Which turbo set-up and which mapping system would the panel recommend :)
What about ignition timing changes where the single is off boost or not shifting anything like the airflow of the sequential twins? People see good gains here in torque, spool and low speed driveability with added ignition advance below their boost thresholds.
I'm not trying to stir things up here, I'm genuinely interested in the <800bhp/ignition timing opinion.
I am not talking about a Greddy T78 here, that makes no useable boost until 5000 RPM, well past the peak torque of stock twins. A smaller single for true street driven cars, such as Stage 1, 2, or 2+ follows the spool up characteristics of the stock twins very closely. The Stage 1 makes peak torque at 4500-4800 RPM, whereas the stock twins make peak torque at right at 5000 RPM, so its very close. These smaller turbos spool up at 2500+ RPM, so tuning off boost at 1500-2000 RPM seems ridiculous. Yes, you can add more timing in those ranges however who actually drives in those RPM ranges? I speak of real-world street driven Supras here. I too have installed Motec EMS and Fcon systems on the same cars, and yes I've picked up torque and spool up a TINY bit.. but is it worth the $4000 USD to gain 20 ft/lb at 2000 RPM, not for me.
The one thing I have an advantage over other "tuners" is that I've actually de-crypted the stock ECU maps. I've seen the map, so Im not going by 2nd hand information here. The stock TT Supra ignition map is actually pretty darn good for most applications. Its pretty aggressive in spool-up areas, probably why single turbos spool up so fast. I would actually add more timing under boost, but the cars make the HP anyhow without it. Is there room for improvement, sure as with anything. But is the end result worth the expense and hassle, not in my humble opinion.
Thanks
I suspect that a lot of Jap spec AUTO drivers will be interested in knowing WHICH is the best way to map the car with small(ish) single set-ups that are within the stock tranny box capabilities
I cant rememeber the exact %'s of manual to auto set-ups - but the Jap spec auto is (I believe) the far more prevalent over here
Which turbo set-up and which mapping system would the panel recommend :)
By a HUGE margin, the most popular setup we sell to Supra TT automatic's here in the US is:
PHR Stage 1 60mm kit
PHR Stage 2 Fuel Kit
MAP ECU and Harness
Greddy 3 row Intercooler
Uprated torque converter
Those cars are killer fast on the street...
If I want around 750 wheel horsepower, what would you recommend?
If I want around 750 wheel horsepower, what would you recommend?
We do that quite often here with a MAP ECU, but we also do that level with Fcon and MoTec as well. Its really and truly up to you and your future goals. If you think you will eventually upgrade even further, then might consider a full EMS. But, we've gone all the way to 960 Wheel HP using the MAP ECU too.. haha. Its up to you.
But like your shortlist above, not just which ECU - what's your shortlist recipe to a reliable 750whp?
But like your shortlist above, not just which ECU - what's your shortlist recipe to a reliable 750whp?
Auto box or stick?
Auto box or stick?
Both if possible.
Can you PM me with a quote for the following please?
PHR Stage 2 Fuel Kit
MAP ECU and Harness (and any 'extras' for a UK Auto?)
Uprated torque converter - 3800 probably
I'm going to be running twins, IHI RHX6's, P16s (0.63 A/R) - I'm not out for big numbers, I'm more interested in masses of torque across the rev range.
veilsideTT
26-08-06, 00:20
Does the stage 1 fuel system come with new lines from the pumps to the rail?
Does it come with the twin walbro pump bracket/hanger?
Stage 1,2, and 3 kits come with everything, all fuel lines, dual pumps, Pump insulating material, all fittings, PHR fuel rail and Injectors. and they come fully installed so you dont have to cut or trim the fuel lines or add the earls components to the lines or rail etc etc. Only difference in the kits is the size of injectors. 720cc 850cc and 960cc
the pump hangers are extra IIRC about £250
If you have ever built a fuel system from scratch, you will know how expensive and time consuming it can be, and Earls UK are not the cheapest people to do business with lol
The PHR kits are top quality and i highly recommend them - ive installed 2 of the kits on supra's and also run their Fuel rail and a hacked up stage 1 kit on our mk3.
Both if possible.
Doing 750 WHP through the auto is not really possible.... 600 WHP maybe for a bit, but 750 WHP it might last 1 week or 1 month. You can build it up yes, but the reliability of doing this is still questionable even here.
With a 6 speed, I suggest the MAP ECU and harness, PHR Stage 2+ or Stage 3, Stage 2 fuel, Greddy or other uprated intercooler, and of course the exhaust, and other basic items. Stage 2+ wont really get you 750 WHP, but it will spool up a heck of a lot faster than a Stage 3.
Can you PM me with a quote for the following please?
PHR Stage 2 Fuel Kit
MAP ECU and Harness (and any 'extras' for a UK Auto?)
Uprated torque converter - 3800 probably
I'm going to be running twins, IHI RHX6's, P16s (0.63 A/R) - I'm not out for big numbers, I'm more interested in masses of torque across the rev range.
I dont think I have PM turned on, email me directly jarrett@powerhouseracing.com
Your running twins but you want a broad, flat torque curve? Those two normally dont get along..
[QUOTE=8secSupra;996934]Doing 750 WHP through the auto is not really possible.... 600 WHP maybe for a bit, but 750 WHP it might last 1 week or 1 month. You can build it up yes, but the reliability of doing this is still questionable even here.
QUOTE]
Gamer has the built BL autobox and most people accept over here that over 500hp they are pushing thier luck on the stock box
Can i have a price for a stage2+ turbo only please
Can i have a price for a stage2+ turbo only please
post the price up if you would please Jarrett. 67DBB isn't it?
I dont think I have PM turned on, email me directly jarrett@powerhouseracing.com
You have mail :)
Your running twins but you want a broad, flat torque curve? Those two normally dont get along..
More torque than my standard twins is the first goal :)
Auto box or stick?
With say a BL built auto box & PI 4,000 stall TC, 1x fluidyne tranny cooler with Spal pull fan. 3" exhaust system.
What additional parts would you suggest for 750whp, cheaply as possible but with reliability? Would the stage 2+ turbo come close? If so what kinda power level?
Is the stage 2 fuel system (850cc injectors?) man enough for this power level?
I guess importantly as well, can this power be achieved on 93MON fuel and at what boost level? Given that the implication so far is that suitable fuel system + suitable turbo (stage 2+ or 3) + MAP ECU at 1.2bar - 1.3bar of boost will make this power.
You'd need the stage 3 if you're after those kind of power levels. 750whp IS A LOT. Are you sure that's what you want? Nothing is going to be that reliable at those levels for any length of time, and IMO it's not going to be very usable on the road.
Just asking questions direct to the horse so to speak Michael. To get another slant on what's achievable and what isn't. I know full well what everyone talks about as being achievable or not.... Jarret and Dusty have good US market experience and whilst us brits are often sceptical about the power figures banded about from this market, you can't argue with the drag times often achieved. For me, this is important as I want a quick drag car ;) It's not my daily driver.
Just asking questions direct to the horse so to speak Michael. To get another slant on what's achievable and what isn't. I know full well what everyone talks about as being achievable or not.... Jarret and Dusty have good US market experience and whilst us brits are often sceptical about the power figures banded about from this market, you can't argue with the drag times often achieved. For me, this is important as I want a quick drag car ;) It's not my daily driver.
Remember that people have gotten 11's on stock turbo's, just depends how fast you wanna go. ;)
I'm all for pushing my car as fast as it can go on stock turbo's. I'm already far down that road ;) But it's inevitable I'll reach a limit where the car can't go faster without a lot of money spent on auxiliary components whereby it's more economical to go single, or I'll fire the stockers out the exhaust.
With say a BL built auto box & PI 4,000 stall TC, 1x fluidyne tranny cooler with Spal pull fan. 3" exhaust system.
What additional parts would you suggest for 750whp, cheaply as possible but with reliability? Would the stage 2+ turbo come close? If so what kinda power level?
Is the stage 2 fuel system (850cc injectors?) man enough for this power level?
I guess importantly as well, can this power be achieved on 93MON fuel and at what boost level? Given that the implication so far is that suitable fuel system + suitable turbo (stage 2+ or 3) + MAP ECU at 1.2bar - 1.3bar of boost will make this power.
You use that number a lot, 93 MON. Where exactly is it coming from?
Shell Optimax is about the top dog for regular pump fuel. It has a RON rating of 98, and a MON of 86. Regular unleaded has a RON of 95 and a MON of 85. Thats quite some way short of 93MON.
BP's 102 race orientated fuel thats been recently made available is 102 RON and 90 MON. Interesting, in as much as this is beyond what the MSA allows for road fuel race specs, their limit being 89.
Infact, under FIA regulations, race fuel blended to the limit of road fuel specifications is limited to 90 MON.
Our best, readily available fuel, V-Power, will be the equivalent to the US's 93 octane when fully rolled out.
You use that number a lot, 93 MON. Where exactly is it coming from?
Shell Optimax is about the top dog for regular pump fuel. It has a RON rating of 98, and a MON of 86. Regular unleaded has a RON of 95 and a MON of 85. Thats quite some way short of 93MON.
BP's 102 race orientated fuel thats been recently made available is 102 RON and 90 MON. Interesting, in as much as this is beyond what the MSA allows for road fuel race specs, their limit being 89.
Infact, under FIA regulations, race fuel blended to the limit of road fuel specifications is limited to 90 MON.
Our best, readily available fuel, V-Power, will be the equivalent to the US's 93 octane when fully rolled out.
Our fuel is 91-93 octane (MON) maximum. And we run 1.2-1.3 BAR all day long, every single day, for the last 10 years.
If we're being pedantic, it's actually 91 - 93 MON+RON/2 but as per the above most Americans just say 91-93 MON for their pump fuel.
Let's not turn this into a debate on fuel gradings emicen :rolleyes:
Can i have a price for a stage2+ turbo only please
Email me for any pricing details, and I'll be happy to work with you.
Thanks,
post the price up if you would please Jarrett. 67DBB isn't it?
Why is it that only the UK guys want DBB turbos? Has someone said they are better or something?
Of all the Kits we sell, maybe 5% are DBB, and all of that 5% comes from the UK....
Thanks
With say a BL built auto box & PI 4,000 stall TC, 1x fluidyne tranny cooler with Spal pull fan. 3" exhaust system.
What additional parts would you suggest for 750whp, cheaply as possible but with reliability? Would the stage 2+ turbo come close? If so what kinda power level?
Is the stage 2 fuel system (850cc injectors?) man enough for this power level?
I guess importantly as well, can this power be achieved on 93MON fuel and at what boost level? Given that the implication so far is that suitable fuel system + suitable turbo (stage 2+ or 3) + MAP ECU at 1.2bar - 1.3bar of boost will make this power.
Through an automatic, it would take a Stage 3 running at 2.3 BAR or a Stage 4 74mm running at 2.0 BAR to get close to those figures. You would have to make the equivalent of about 900 BHP to see 750 Wheel HP through the auto.
Stage 2 would be adequate, barely.
No, NO turbo system on the planet can run more than 1.2-1.3 BAR on standard pump fuel (our 93 octane) with any size turbo. That only equates to about 550 WHP at most. Anything beyond these numbers requires high octane racing fuel like 110 octane or higher.
Why is it that only the UK guys want DBB turbos? Has someone said they are better or something?
Of all the Kits we sell, maybe 5% are DBB, and all of that 5% comes from the UK....
Thanks
Yes people have said they are better. I run the ITS GT72dbb and have no complaints but i don't really have anything to compare it to. Are you saying the non dbb 67 turbo will be a more sensible turbo then? I want to downsize to get a bit more enjoyment out of driving it. I may possibly even go down to a 61
You use that number a lot, 93 MON. Where exactly is it coming from?
Shell Optimax is about the top dog for regular pump fuel. It has a RON rating of 98, and a MON of 86. Regular unleaded has a RON of 95 and a MON of 85. Thats quite some way short of 93MON.
BP's 102 race orientated fuel thats been recently made available is 102 RON and 90 MON. Interesting, in as much as this is beyond what the MSA allows for road fuel race specs, their limit being 89.
Infact, under FIA regulations, race fuel blended to the limit of road fuel specifications is limited to 90 MON.
Our best, readily available fuel, V-Power, will be the equivalent to the US's 93 octane when fully rolled out.
In the US, we dont really have these limitations. Our fuel pumps are labeled with the octane rating and the method by which they calculate it... R+M/2=CLC Octane (US version). So our 93 Octane fuel is actually probably closer to 97-98 Octane RON since ours is under-rated.
We can run whatever gasonline-based fuels we want to, up to 120+ octane. At each race track here, we have filling stations with 100, 110, 114, and 120 octane fuel, and in some cities you can already purchase 100 octane fuel (104 RON) although its almost $10 USD per gallon.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Why is it that only the UK guys want DBB turbos? Has someone said they are better or something?
Of all the Kits we sell, maybe 5% are DBB, and all of that 5% comes from the UK....
Thanks
And some testing between the 2 ;) http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=68090
Through an automatic, it would take a Stage 3 running at 2.3 BAR or a Stage 4 74mm running at 2.0 BAR to get close to those figures. You would have to make the equivalent of about 900 BHP to see 750 Wheel HP through the auto.
Stage 2 would be adequate, barely.
No, NO turbo system on the planet can run more than 1.2-1.3 BAR on standard pump fuel (our 93 octane) with any size turbo. That only equates to about 550 WHP at most. Anything beyond these numbers requires high octane racing fuel like 110 octane or higher.
Thanks for clearing that up Jarrett. So many high hp figures get banded about like it's so easy with our pump fuel over here when people are relating to figures they've seen on American sites without the realisation of very high boost and very high octane fuel.
This time, what would your recommendation be for 750 flywheel horsepower? Same start spec as I listed above.
Cheers,
Brian.
veilsideTT
27-08-06, 22:19
and in some cities you can already purchase 100 octane fuel (104 RON) although its almost $10 USD per gallon.
Hands up who would pay "almost" £5.30 per gallon of 104 RON!!!
Thats "almost" £1.15 a litre. My hands up!
On with the subject :D
[QUOTE=LeeT;999106]Yes people have said they are better. I run the ITS GT72dbb and have no complaints but i don't really have anything to compare it to. Are you saying the non dbb 67 turbo will be a more sensible turbo then? I want to downsize to get a bit more enjoyment out of driving it. I may possibly even go down to a 61[/QUOTE/]
Lee, I'm not saying that DBB is "better" than standard bearing, or vice versa. Personally, I dont think the DBB option is worth the $700 additional. However, if you read the thread quoted below, you would think I try to sell what I have on the shelf, funny. I try to save people money and they accuse me of dishonestly.
To me, the .75 PSI difference at a given RPM for DBB is NOT worth $700. I dont drive my Supra at 2000 RPM, 3000 RPM, or even 4000 RPM when I need to boost quickly. When I need to rocket out, I downshift to 4500-5000 RPM and have boost instantly.
If you truly want to downsize to a smaller turbo and enjoy the broader torque range, I personally would go for a standard GT60 Stage 1. It makes more HP than you could ever get to the ground at 1.2 BAR anyhow!
thanks!
And some testing between the 2 ;) http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=68090
Thanks for reminding me of that thread.. I thought it was done long ago.. had no idea what was being said over there!
Thanks for clearing that up Jarrett. So many high hp figures get banded about like it's so easy with our pump fuel over here when people are relating to figures they've seen on American sites without the realisation of very high boost and very high octane fuel.
This time, what would your recommendation be for 750 flywheel horsepower? Same start spec as I listed above.
Cheers,
Brian.
Brian, I dont go by horsepower figures directly. Especially on the auto cars, since the HP figures are so skewed anyhow. For me, if my car was auto with your mods, I would do a Stage 1 60mm or Stage 2 62mm and run 1.2 BAR. That would put you at near 600 BHP on pump fuel in the UK, and at 750 BHP on race fuel. Plus, its the most fun turbo by far for an auto car.
[QUOTE=LeeT;999106]Yes people have said they are better. I run the ITS GT72dbb and have no complaints but i don't really have anything to compare it to. Are you saying the non dbb 67 turbo will be a more sensible turbo then? I want to downsize to get a bit more enjoyment out of driving it. I may possibly even go down to a 61[/QUOTE/]
Lee, I'm not saying that DBB is "better" than standard bearing, or vice versa. Personally, I dont think the DBB option is worth the $700 additional. However, if you read the thread quoted below, you would think I try to sell what I have on the shelf, funny. I try to save people money and they accuse me of dishonestly.
To me, the .75 PSI difference at a given RPM for DBB is NOT worth $700. I dont drive my Supra at 2000 RPM, 3000 RPM, or even 4000 RPM when I need to boost quickly. When I need to rocket out, I downshift to 4500-5000 RPM and have boost instantly.
If you truly want to downsize to a smaller turbo and enjoy the broader torque range, I personally would go for a standard GT60 Stage 1. It makes more HP than you could ever get to the ground at 1.2 BAR anyhow!
thanks!
thanks Jarrett, will be in touch
lee
I understand where you are coming from but I still believe that the MAP ECU is nothing more than a high quality Fuel controller with a few bells and whistles. Both Dave and I have sat down and had a good look and as far as we can see it cannot adjust the timing, which is quite crutial when going single on a stock ECU if you ae thinking of adding Cams etc. We could be wrong here as we dont actually have a unit yet.
Also how do you tackle raising the rev limit on this system without replacing the crystal?
If the MAP ECU is basically as stated above then we have a system in the UK called a Unichip with is much more diverse and has alot more features.
However your claims of not requiring a standalone up to 700 are; although workable, not a great idea if you are looking to get teh best out of your car. Im sure we could acheive a much more drivable and faster street car point to point on an aem with 500 than a map ecu with 600.
Look forward to seeing you Next week.
Both Dave and I have sat down and had a good look and as far as we can see it cannot adjust the timing
I thought that was apparrent to everyone from just looking at the specs for 2seconds?
I thought that was apparrent to everyone from just looking at the specs for 2seconds?
I know Im thick Alex but no need to point it out :p
Ok martin, what Piggy back is available at the same price to control fueling and Eliminate the AFM on a uk TT....
(Dont say VPC as technically its works but is redundant technology)
Ok martin, what Piggy back is available at the same price to control fueling and Eliminate the AFM on a uk TT....
(Dont say VPC as technically its works but is redundant technology)
eManage Ultimate....but someone needs to stump up the time to get it working with a mapper to perfect it as it's not been done too successfully so far.
eManage Ultimate....but someone needs to stump up the time to get it working with a mapper to perfect it as it's not been done too successfully so far.
Yeah, but as you said it needs to be proven and working reliably before the masses would even consider it, we're still trying to figure out why the blue ignition wont work on a UK still lol
Again, though it offers a lot more, the ultimate package for fueling and map is a bit more expensive than the MapEcu, think it works out about $600+ less the shipping from Mohd.
I know Ernie (cheifgroover) ran the MapECU and it done a good job for him, lots states side on both ml3, and mk4 (though mk3 boys now have the MAFTpro which is VPc, AFC, AVCR, and ITC rolled into one) but until someone says they are running the Ultimate with Maf elination without any problems, it will stay a no goer..
UniChip will remove the MAF - as will an Emanage Ultimate - Done and Proven by us. 2 Cars One in South Wales the other in Somerset - both Singles, Both non board members but I will see if they would be interested in comeing on and commenting.
Martin that would only be beneficial to you as away of promoting you and your mappers services...
What im saying is the lack of information out there in the public domain martin, Its no good that you have done 2 UK cars and used the MAF elimination of the EM ultimate, A lot of people are quite capable of doing the work themselves when presented with some backing information to do so. Obviously your mapper isnt going to comment on how it was setup etc etc...
Now imagine a guide appearing on mkiv.com to do it, you can bet your balls to a barn dance a lot of people would be stepping up to the challenge and you would see a big number of UK cars running the Ultimate..
Actually Matt H has already asked me on how to do it and we are only 2 happy to share. I just need to sit down with Dave and get it written down in english for people. I dont have any issues sharing the information, it allows people to make a more informed choice.
Actually Matt H has already asked me on how to do it and we are only 2 happy to share. I just need to sit down with Dave and get it written down in english for people. I dont have any issues sharing the information, it allows people to make a more informed choice.
I didnt say you did :p
what i was trying to say is while info is scarce in the public domain people tend to stay away from certain products, and yes, a base map and instructions would make a difference in many peoples choice - a big one :) Im still working away on the EM blue ignition issues and hopefully can crack the problem and make it known.
I understand where you are coming from but I still believe that the MAP ECU is nothing more than a high quality Fuel controller with a few bells and whistles. Both Dave and I have sat down and had a good look and as far as we can see it cannot adjust the timing, which is quite crutial when going single on a stock ECU if you ae thinking of adding Cams etc. We could be wrong here as we dont actually have a unit yet.
Also how do you tackle raising the rev limit on this system without replacing the crystal?
According to Jarrett, having timing control isn't crucial. In the states they use the Gforce ECU to raise the rev limit which is basically a remapped stock unit if i understand it right. No offence Martin but if Jarret tells me that ignition timing isn't required i believe him as he has been tuning supras for many many years whereas you have only been around for what seems like 5 minutes.
I understand where you are coming from but I still believe that the MAP ECU is nothing more than a high quality Fuel controller with a few bells and whistles. Both Dave and I have sat down and had a good look and as far as we can see it cannot adjust the timing, which is quite crutial when going single on a stock ECU if you ae thinking of adding Cams etc. We could be wrong here as we dont actually have a unit yet.
Also how do you tackle raising the rev limit on this system without replacing the crystal?
If the MAP ECU is basically as stated above then we have a system in the UK called a Unichip with is much more diverse and has alot more features.
However your claims of not requiring a standalone up to 700 are; although workable, not a great idea if you are looking to get teh best out of your car. Im sure we could acheive a much more drivable and faster street car point to point on an aem with 500 than a map ecu with 600.
Look forward to seeing you Next week.
Your correct, the MAP ECU cannot do ignition timing, yet. However, Im not about to get into another MAP ECU versus AEM pissing match. Each has its purpose, but I believe that most street driven 500 and 600 HP Supras have no need for it. AEM and other EMS systems have their place, just not for the applications I speak of specifically.
My thought processes and points all follow in the lines of using smaller, street-driven, single turbo setups that are quick to spool and make good HP for street applications. None of this applies to higher HP street/race applications.
Ignition timing control is ABSOLUTELY NOT NECESSARY on anything below 650 WHEEL HP, period. I'll say it again, I have the machine to re-flash the stock ECU in binary, and if I believed I could do better believe me I would sell a "PHR Upgraded ECU" package. But the factory A map is pretty aggressive and nice for a street car, and when properly tuned (this is where fuel system upgrades come into play) you will have no detonation with a MAP ECU or any piggyback at 500-600 WHP. Cams make no difference in ignition timing, only air/fuel ratio and hence torque.
As to raising the RPM limiter above 6800 RPM, why would you want to? If you have a properly sized single turbo, making peak torque at 4500 RPM, why shift above 6800 RPM? The car accelerates hardest at the point around peak torque, so why string the engine out to 7000+ RPM? It only increases the engine wear and gains you nothing. Again, this is for street applications.
As to other piggyback systems, true there are the Unichip and Emanage systems also. But the whole point to this thread was the fact that very few people have actually tuned a MAF-less Emanage setup and there is no "easy" way to do mapping for basic single turbo cars in the UK. Plus, the Emanage is just another +/- piggyback, that only modifies the stock signal, whereas the MAP ECU generates its own 5v signal, so you have 100% COMPLETE control over the entire map from 0-8500 RPM and -10 to 30 psi. I was pointing out just another option to the folks, because the UK and US spec cars are identical in the MAF system. We have maps already done, 100s of them in fact, for the MAP ECU. And we have maps already done for Jspec cars with 850cc injectors running the MAP sensor. I have plug and play harnesses for both setups, to make the install last 10 minutes. Its just another option thats easy, straightforward, and we have mapping pre-done for all variations of our kits.
Again, Im not saying the AEM has no purpose at some point, just that I fully believe that most street driven Supra's have little need for it at these power levels.
I postponed my trip for a couple weeks.. not really ready to die just yet on an airplane so Im going to wait till it cools off a bit haha.
Thanks,
I postponed my trip for a couple weeks.. not really ready to die just yet on an airplane so Im going to wait till it cools off a bit haha.
Thanks,
Pussy :rlol:
Pussy :rlol:
HAHAHA very funny
What about VVTi systems that run a MAF? Just interested in options, as I currently have the emanage ultimate running MAFless, not perfect tho...
What about VVTi systems that run a MAF? Just interested in options, as I currently have the emanage ultimate running MAFless, not perfect tho...
Depends on the setup. I've done VVTi Lexus cars before with no trouble using the MAP ECU. I also do them with the MoTec M4 system. It depends on how much HP you are shooting for and how you drive it.
Depends on the setup. I've done VVTi Lexus cars before with no trouble using the MAP ECU. I also do them with the MoTec M4 system. It depends on how much HP you are shooting for and how you drive it.
So would a MAP ECU be ok with:
PHR Stage 1 60mm kit
PHR Stage 2 Fuel Kit
Setup on a VVTI? And from what you've said this would be an awesome road car?
Good thread so informative. :)
So would a MAP ECU be ok with:
PHR Stage 1 60mm kit
PHR Stage 2 Fuel Kit
Setup on a VVTI? And from what you've said this would be an awesome road car?
Good thread so informative. :)
Well yes and no. MAP ECU is perfect for a Stage 1 turbo and Stage 2 fuel, but in the US our VVTi models are also OBD2 emissions control. Not sure if your car is OBD2 or not, but OBD2 makes it alot more difficult to tune for any piggyback because of the feedback control. Otherwise, it works like a charm.
Hello again :) I promise not to kick off in here but I wanted to share my observations from mapping E-Manages on single turbo cars.
On a fair few cars I've had to pull a couple of degrees of timing around 4000 to 5000rpm, because I pick up a sping or two of det when on 1.2bar or higher boost. This removes the det without a noticeable drop in power. I think it's because the stock ECU is still trying to make a pair of sequential turbos transition from single to parallel, and having one big single thundering away gives more boost than the stock ECU is expecting by far, so it's timing is a tad too agressive.
I've also found that adding timing up top is an exercise in det-based futility, as is adding any timing anywhere with the stock sequential system in place (even with hybrids). However, I added a lot of timing under 4000rpm and 1bar of boost to make things a bit perkier down below. I theorise that the single turbo, when on boost under 4000rpm, is so much more efficient than one small stock turbo that you can have more ignition advance than the stock map allows, as it's expecting rather hot air. Definitely a better seat-of-the-pants feeling with this advance, but no performance data to back it up I'm afraid. And I know Jarrett doesn't spend any time below 4krpm anyway ;) Oh, and I drive between 1500 and 2000rpm a lot around town by the way :shrug:
Of course, every car is different, but having timing adjustment for the transition point (and T61's above 1.2bar usually need some pulling up top as well) seems to be an essential to me personally. I listen with det cans while out on the road and these are the results I've found. This clashes with the assertations that no timing control is required unless you've got a turbo the size of a washing machine, but I can only say what I've seen/heard...
I agree on not bothering to raise the rev limit, that's the real engine killer anyway - decent cams will let the engine breath to 6500+ strongly but 7000+ it seems to run out of puff anyway.
I don't really agree with this bit:
"the Emanage is just another +/- piggyback, that only modifies the stock signal, whereas the MAP ECU generates its own 5v signal, so you have 100% COMPLETE control over the entire map from 0-8500 RPM and -10 to 30 psi."
Yes, the E-Manage sends altered airflow signals to the stock ECU, but that's what the MAP ECU does as well. The stock ECU still ends up with a fudged voltage on it's airflow line, it just happens to have come from the MAP ECU's own sensor and calculated output rather than the stock sensor and the E-Manages calculated output. Not that that's a bad thing :shrug: The E-Manage can, however, also adjust fuelling based on load (boost vs rpm, or speed density, which I believe you said the E-Manage couldn't do? :blink: ). It was an Ok function with the Blue but much better with the Ultimate when it could remove duty as well, and with more resolution.
That's it really, just wanted to add my observations and correct what I thought was wrong in an area I know something about :) All very freindly like :)
-Ian
All very freindly like :)
-Ian
Yeah right, stop trying to cause trouble Ian!
(very interesting, thanks for posting btw ;))
By scaling the airflow signal to compensate for things like bigger injectors you are moving to a different part of the ignition map. This together with having a completely different turbo setup with no transition and different cams means the ignition map you want is going to be completely different from standard.
Every tuning book I've ever read agrees that correct ignition mapping is fundamental to getting good results. So unless the stock ECU varies the timing a whole heap from it's normal map which I'm pretty sure it doesn't it seems pretty important to remap it. Of course the only way to tell for sure would be to use an Emanage or something and dyno a car with and without adjusting the timing, keeping everything else the same, but I doubt anyone has.
Just a few things to get straight.
1. I never said that MAP ECU was *Better* than the Emanage. I simply offered up yet another option to the street crowd, because it was posted by someone that MAP ECU could not do Jspec Supras with the MAP sensor, which it can. This is NOT an Emanage versus MAP ECU thread.
2. Ignition timing is octane related. We debated the US octane levels vs. UK octane levels earlier on. We can get away with 1.2 BAR here all day long, every day, without a hint of detonation running our 94 octane fuel. If your equivalent fuel is more like 89 octane, then obviously you might encounter detonation at some point.
3. There are some very thick skulls on this forum. Its continually brought up that "the ECU switches to a different point of its timing map" or that "the timing maps are too aggressive in the transition point between two turbos". These comments are coming from people who, presumably, have never even looked at the factory ECU maps. There is one map for non-LIMP driving, and there is no variation between "maps" or "transition points" in the map, anywhere.
4. MAP ECU 2, coming in about 6 months, will make the Emanage Ultimate look like a childs toy and obsolete. With full timing control to past 10,000 RPM, 50 PSI mapping, boost control, FCD, SCD, NOS control, and dozens of other features. But I have no "official" comment on that yet. :-)
Thanks,
Pardon my thick skull :) I haven't seen the stock map, most of my stuff comes from what I experience and find out as I go along and I've little else to go on. I did say "theorise" in my post as that's all it really is.
I think the point people (myself included) are making in 3) is that if you tell the ECU that it's got 0.4bar of boost instead of 0.8bar by fudging the airflow signal, then it uses the load site for 0.4bar's worth of duty cycle (great for controlling the bigger injectors) but also it uses the ignition timing load site for 0.4bar's worth of boost. Which is possibly different to the ignition timing load site for 0.8bar's worth of boost which is what the engine is actually seeing. However I can't say I've ever really noticed a problem even when pulling 40+% of airflow signal, all I've noticed is the odd ping at torque peak which may be fuel, intercooling, environmental, turbo, or engine based.
Didn't mean to make it a bit "E-Manage vs MAP ECU", I was just pointing out a couple of differences. I don't even know how much a MAP ECU costs :) The v2 one sounds good, although 10krpm and 50psi of boost is a bit OTT for us conservative limeys ;) The EMU can do a fair few of those things as well, FCD, SLD, speedo conversion and adjustment, WI and NOS control with full rev and boost windowing :blah: but no full timing control yet, just adjustments to the stock signal :)
-Ian
Pardon my thick skull :) I haven't seen the stock map, most of my stuff comes from what I experience and find out as I go along and I've little else to go on. I did say "theorise" in my post as that's all it really is.
I think the point people (myself included) are making in 3) is that if you tell the ECU that it's got 0.4bar of boost instead of 0.8bar by fudging the airflow signal, then it uses the load site for 0.4bar's worth of duty cycle (great for controlling the bigger injectors) but also it uses the ignition timing load site for 0.4bar's worth of boost. Which is possibly different to the ignition timing load site for 0.8bar's worth of boost which is what the engine is actually seeing. However I can't say I've ever really noticed a problem even when pulling 40+% of airflow signal, all I've noticed is the odd ping at torque peak which may be fuel, intercooling, environmental, turbo, or engine based.
Didn't mean to make it a bit "E-Manage vs MAP ECU", I was just pointing out a couple of differences. I don't even know how much a MAP ECU costs :) The v2 one sounds good, although 10krpm and 50psi of boost is a bit OTT for us conservative limeys ;) The EMU can do a fair few of those things as well, FCD, SLD, speedo conversion and adjustment, WI and NOS control with full rev and boost windowing :blah: but no full timing control yet, just adjustments to the stock signal :)
-Ian
HAHA
The difference between .4 BAR and .8 BAR in the map is 3 degrees of timing from 4000 RPM and up, not bad. I've not noticed much issues with ping either even when fooling the MAF signal. But even the most aggressive timing numbers in that stock map dont worry me. We run more timing with our Motec cars than factory.
C'mon and step up Ian... get a GT47-88 and 50 psi... :-)
Ignition timing control is ABSOLUTELY NOT NECESSARY on anything below 650 WHEEL HP, period. I'll say it again, I have the machine to re-flash the stock ECU in binary, and if I believed I could do better believe me I would sell a "PHR Upgraded ECU" package. But the factory A map is pretty aggressive and nice for a street car, and when properly tuned (this is where fuel system upgrades come into play) you will have no detonation with a MAP ECU or any piggyback at 500-600 WHP. Cams make no difference in ignition timing, only air/fuel ratio and hence torque.
You mentioned that you have the ability to flash the stock ECU, I'm assuming then you have access to the standard toyota maps. Would you ever considering releasing them?
Things such as gearbox maps for the auto's and that would be very useful, unless of course they are toyota copyright.
It would just be easier to see where the stock maps do things, then it would make it so much easier to anticipate what to do with various piggyback ecu's
Long shot I know, but worth an ask
You mentioned that you have the ability to flash the stock ECU, I'm assuming then you have access to the standard toyota maps. Would you ever considering releasing them?
Things such as gearbox maps for the auto's and that would be very useful, unless of course they are toyota copyright.
It would just be easier to see where the stock maps do things, then it would make it so much easier to anticipate what to do with various piggyback ecu's
Long shot I know, but worth an ask
The license for the software cost us over $10,000 almost 8 years ago. I cannot release any of those maps on a public forum, since doing so would be violating the license agreement and probably get me into a heap of trouble.
Thanks,
I cannot release any of those maps on a public forum, since doing so would be violating the license agreement and probably get me into a heap of trouble.
Thanks,
We won't tell anyone, we promise :innocent:
I can't fully understand how injector signals and ignition timing is not public information, after all it can be obtained with a data acq card... admittedly it would be a lot more effort.
Also since the car is not made any more I'm tempted to see if Toyota have a problem with it being made public, they MIGHT be open about it (Long shot I know)
Go for it, I'd be interested to get involved in that if I can help you matey :)
Might remind them to make a Mk5 as well.
-Ian
Go for it, I'd be interested to get involved in that if I can help you matey :)
Might remind them to make a Mk5 as well.
-Ian
Now the search starts for an ECU... anybody got a duff one (need the eeprom to be in one piece tho please)...
I can't fully understand how injector signals and ignition timing is not public information, after all it can be obtained with a data acq card... admittedly it would be a lot more effort.
Also since the car is not made any more I'm tempted to see if Toyota have a problem with it being made public, they MIGHT be open about it (Long shot I know)
Techtom in Japan purchased/was granted a license by Toyota Motor Company to access and modify files on these ECU's. The OEM bin files are encrypted and are in binary format, and remain the property of Toyota Motor Corporation. We are simply allowed to modify them, but we also must re-encrypt them after doing so. If you want to tinker with the property of Toyota Corp. be my guest. I'd prefer to stay out of court personally.
Re,
Now the search starts for an ECU... anybody got a duff one (need the eeprom to be in one piece tho please)...
I've just sold one to JohnK and he only wants the main connector so i'm sure he'll let you have the eprom.
This is the first time I have posted on here but I felt I may shed some light on the Toyota ECU. We have all the Techtom gear and have had it for some years now, we have all the maps for the Toyota ECU. What I must point out is that the Toyota ECU is very complicated ie it uses two processing chips for the main data, one for fuel and one for ignition, to be able to live map this system would be very expensive because the price of emulator that would work with the Toyota chips hence why Techtom designed two baby boards to house two e-proms which held the fuel and ignition data allowing you to use an emulator. As for being in a binary format I think that is standard anyway and not encrypted. We mainly bought this gear to do the Skylines which you can just burn another processing chip and have one ECU for development work which you cannot do with the Toyota ECU. The trouble is the cost of the boards and the installation which puts people off. We did one of these ECUs for Paul Whiffin some years ago, the trouble was we are up north and he is down south so the travelling for mapping was going to be a problem hence why we advised Paul to purchase and AEM which was just coming out at the time. I hope this answers a few questions.
Thanks
andy@amt
Techtom in Japan purchased/was granted a license by Toyota Motor Company to access and modify files on these ECU's. The OEM bin files are encrypted and are in binary format, and remain the property of Toyota Motor Corporation. We are simply allowed to modify them, but we also must re-encrypt them after doing so. If you want to tinker with the property of Toyota Corp. be my guest. I'd prefer to stay out of court personally.
Re,
Wow. This is news to me!
Actually most Toyota ECUs are made by Denso Corp. I think Denso are partly owned by Toyota but they also make ECUs for Mazda etc.
You can get the ROM code out of the Denso ECUs quite easily BTW. I've been doing it for some years now. On some ECUs you don't even have to remove any chips as you can dump the ROM out via an internal data connection once you know how.
Also, they are not that complicated. I've not looked at a mk4 Supra ECU yet (although I expect to be getting one in the next few weeks) but the ECU in the mk2 turbo MR2 only has 12 or 16kb of ROM depending on the model. The binaries are only encrypted by Techtom. They are not encrypted in any way when you dump them out of the Denso ECU.
I don't see how 'only' you guys have the right to modify these ECUs just because you bought some gear from a company called Techtom. That doesn't make sense, but then sometimes the law is like that.
I doubt Toyota/Denso really care anymore if people tinker with these ECUs. The technology is old and the programs are quite simple. If they were bothered about it they would have at least made some attempt at making the MCU chip more secure against unauthorisd access. The fact that they didn't tells me they aren't that concerned. Am I going to end up in court if I alter the bodywork or the wheels? I don't see the difference.
Here's some ROM from a supercharged MR2. I'd imagine the Supra MCU will use a similar instruction set.
The code shows how the ECU controls the supercharger relay for the MR2. I've even included the raw hex codes in the disassembly readout. Also, the text comments in white are all my own and nothing to do with Toyota. The whole supercharger relay control program is just a few dozen bytes of code. Nothing complex at all. (NB the readout should say LOAD instead of EFI in several places but I can't be bothered to correct it)
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/JMR_AW11/SC_Relay.gif
This is the first time I have posted on here but I felt I may shed some light on the Toyota ECU. We have all the Techtom gear and have had it for some years now, we have all the maps for the Toyota ECU. What I must point out is that the Toyota ECU is very complicated ie it uses two processing chips for the main data, one for fuel and one for ignition, to be able to live map this system would be very expensive because the price of emulator that would work with the Toyota chips hence why Techtom designed two baby boards to house two e-proms which held the fuel and ignition data allowing you to use an emulator. As for being in a binary format I think that is standard anyway and not encrypted. We mainly bought this gear to do the Skylines which you can just burn another processing chip and have one ECU for development work which you cannot do with the Toyota ECU. The trouble is the cost of the boards and the installation which puts people off. We did one of these ECUs for Paul Whiffin some years ago, the trouble was we are up north and he is down south so the travelling for mapping was going to be a problem hence why we advised Paul to purchase and AEM which was just coming out at the time. I hope this answers a few questions.
Thanks
andy@amt
Like I said in my prev post I've not seen the Supra mk4 ECU yet but none of the Denso ECUs I've played with have separate MCUs for fuel and ignition.
They have one for fuel AND ignition and they have another that does the knock sensor. I really can't see why they would go for two separate MCUs for fuel/ignition.
But then the Supra mk4 is an awesome car so maybe they did! Also the ECU looks quite big so maybe it will be quite complex. I know my way around the 1990s Denso ECUs quite well and I am familiar with the coding style of the guys who did the programming. This is why I'm surprised they split the fuel and the ignition. that means both MCUs have to access and read all the sensors. Also I don't see how they could (easily) get diagnostic data from the ECU. They would have to talk to both MCUs all the time.
Andy, any chance of an image of the mk4 ECU when it is guts open? I'm not interested in the Techtom stuff, just an image or two of the stock ECU.
Excellent information guys.
Any chance of telling me what the load sites relate to on this map?
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g179/VVTiSupra2/RCTS_2JZ_IGNITION.jpg
Now this is the sort of thing I'm talking about....
JMR_AW11.... would you fancy hooking into a mk4 ecu and doing the same sort of thing... Not after the actual code, although there is an element of cuteness to checking out the code... but more importantly pulling off the stock maps, to have a look at...
Think about much easier to would make mapping a piggy back if you know exactly what the dips and peaks are in the ignition/fuelling maps...
Next step would be a custom eprom probably on a daughter board....
Excellent information guys.
Any chance of telling me what the load sites relate to on this map?
I'd need access to the whole ROM to see what that table does. Otherwise it's just a table of numbers. In the ROM there will be a section of program code that points to the address at the start of the table. I then have to step through the code and see what ECU sensor data is used to navigate the table.
BTW your table shows addresses at 0x4000 etc.
This is probably not the true address. In the MCU chip this address will probably be 0xC000. 0x4000 is the address in the EPROM chip.
If someone wants to send me an ECU or a mk4 ROM then I'll look at it. I wrote a powerful disassembler for the Denso MCUs and I simply load the ROM into it and it runs the code and finds all the tables (even the little ones) in a few seconds.
Mind you, finding the tables is one thing, working out what they actually do is another.
Are the mk4 ecus OBD1 or OBD2? This is important because I have been reverse engineering the OBD1 diagnostics and this is the real reason I'm on this site.
If the early mk4 is OBD1 then I'm about to start selling a datalog tool that plugs into a laptop to give rpm, efi, mph, ign, o2 sensor, fuel trim etc etc.
At present it works on OBD1 cars like the mk2 MR2 up to 1998 approx.
If it works on the Supra4 then I guess some of you guys might be interested. What does the OBD/service DLC connector look like on the Supra?
Good to see you here sir, I've been following your exploits on the MR2 forum for a while now :)
Hell, I'd buy a second hand auto ECU just to send to JMR.... I say auto for a good reason... the autobox has always been (or so it seems) an issue on something like an AEM, imagine what could be done with the original Toyota maps...
Most of the ECU's are OBD1, there are a few VVTi's which are OBD2...
Now this is the sort of thing I'm talking about....
JMR_AW11.... would you fancy hooking into a mk4 ecu and doing the same sort of thing... Not after the actual code, although there is an element of cuteness to checking out the code... but more importantly pulling off the stock maps, to have a look at...
Think about much easier to would make mapping a piggy back if you know exactly what the dips and peaks are in the ignition/fuelling maps...
Next step would be a custom eprom probably on a daughter board....
If it uses the same family of MCU chip as the MR2 turbo then I could make a tuneable board for this ECU but unless people are prepared to pay decent money for a board then there is no way I would bother. I'm not planning to make one for the mk2 MR2 ECU for that reason.
Also I would have to be confident of quite a few sales to overcome NRE costs or I'd never make a profit.
I wouldn't encrypt the ROM for this car either and so you could tune your own ROM (at your own risk)
Hell, I'd buy a second hand auto ECU just to send to JMR.... I say auto for a good reason... the autobox has always been (or so it seems) an issue on something like an AEM, imagine what could be done with the original Toyota maps...
Most of the ECU's are OBD1, there are a few VVTi's which are OBD2...
That's very interesting. So can anyone show me an image of the DLC connector for the OBD1?
The OBD1 data that comes out is quite slow and is very limited but here is an image of what can be taken from these old ECUs.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/JMR_AW11/obdbb.gif
This was taken from a rev2 MR2 turbo ECU which I had fed all the sensor data to on a test bench. I may have got the rpm vs mph wrong but you get the idea. It's really only a faultfinding interface to check out emissions and look for obvious problems with things like the throttle or AFM (MAP on some cars) or the coolant sensor or oxygen sensor..
The fuel trim indicator shows how hard the ECU is trying to get the closed loop to stay closed. In the plot above I've manually wiggled the o2 sensor signal to steer the ECU into adding more fuel than normal in order to stay closed loop. A similar thing would happen if your o2 sensor had gone faulty. The W and R o2 sensor indicators flicker between R and W (rich/weak) once the ECU thinks it has got the closed loop to 14.7:1 mixture.
I added a mpg readout as all the info required is there to calculate mpg as you drive the car. eg mph, rpm, EFI duration and the published injector delivery rate for the car (440cc/min for an MR2 turbo rev2?)
Anyway, I'd like to start a fresh thread on all this stuff as this one is on a USA trader's forum link. I'll wait until I get an ECU or someone emails me a ROM for the mk4.
Andy, any chance of an image of the mk4 ECU when it is guts open? I'm not interested in the Techtom stuff, just an image or two of the stock ECU.
Since I have an ECU sat here I took it apart and took a few photos for you. I started a new thread so as not to clog this one up here. (http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=86490)
Excellent information guys.
Any chance of telling me what the load sites relate to on this map?
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g179/VVTiSupra2/RCTS_2JZ_IGNITION.jpg
Yeah that Pic reminded me! Reg Reimer has been doing Supra ECU's for years, He was one of the first i remember doing 7M add on boards and that was Prolly long before most in the states, he never had any quams with making the infomation public either especially on the old mailing lists, i actually run one of his modified VPC roms on one of our Mk3's which was reworked with the help of his TecTom
Can see why on earth the standard fuel/ignition data cant be made public?
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