View Full Version : What sort of power ?
Hi to all,
I'd just like views from the board techies to how much power roughly me dad's car is making.....
His spec is the following....
HKS Super Drager
HKS SQV
ARC FMIC
A'PEXI SAFC
BLITZ DECAT
BLITZ INDUCTION
Boost is currently set at .9 BAR, and I think around 370hp,but it is going to have these added......
HKS EVC 5
SARD FUEL PUMP(also upping the fueling by another 10-15%)
The boost will be 1.1 bar max.
So could someone give me a rough output figure at 1.1 bar,and will raising it to 1.2 make alot of difference to the power??
Many thanks for any help...:thumbs:
Usmann
Hmm, no way to be really sure, but 375-400bhp at 1.2bar would be in the right area.
If you really want to know, get it on a rolling road.
Take it to G-Force in Aylesbury, they're pretty up with the rolling road facilities :) And a lot of us have gone there to get our cars measured.
Actually, just remembered your post about the fast scooby that kept up with you.. I think you've got about 50bhp j/k ;)
OK at 0.9 bar probably around 330ish BHP, but how the hell are you keeping it to 0.9 bar with the cats removed. Doesn't make sense.
Very funny Bobbeh:eek: ,will try G-force,and Thor its only 2nd cat removal,the 1st ones still in there.(I know im more than 330hp deffo, HOPE SO!!:(
Oh Bobbeh,I heard sumwere that that Scooby was NOS'D up,so...didnt feel that bad!(oohh but if it waswnt!:sly: :flame Dev
If you onl have one cat out, at I doubt you would get more than 350bhp.
Originally posted by u_ali
I know im more than 330hp deffo, HOPE SO!!:(
Based on what?
Naaa...your jokin...I was told about 360-370!
Even with the fueling upped by 18% already!?
:eek:
Based on everybody bloody telling me im 360-370!:mad:
(no one from here!)
Originally posted by u_ali
Based on everybody bloody telling me im 360-370!:mad:
(no one from here!)
funny that;)
Need4Speed
29-03-03, 23:39
Mine recorded 360bhp with both cats in at 1.1bar - G Force RR - The first Supra ever on their dyno.
Matt Harwood
30-03-03, 00:57
Originally posted by u_ali
Based on everybody bloody telling me im 360-370!:mad:
(no one from here!)
Rolling road or engine dyno is the ONLY way you'll know for certain.
People say lot's of things ;)
MONKEYmark
30-03-03, 02:05
mines got 150bhp
thats a rounded down to be on safe side. running 1.5bar
ummm....very true Matt,and Mark you sure thats not your shot NOS figure!:p :D
Also the people doing the car said they had someone dyno thier car with all the products I said before at 1.1 bar and that,the car made 425hp!:eek:
Mark Kindell
30-03-03, 11:23
Mine has got about the same spec's as your dads car and i put out 395 bhp at the crank roughly on g-force's rr, cant remember exactly how much boost think it was 1.2 or 1.25 !
Originally posted by u_ali
So could someone give me a rough output figure at 1.1 bar,and will raising it to 1.2 make alot of difference to the power??
More than stock.
:cool:
Cheers martin......:D ,that should keep them 600hp gtrs away!:p
Mark,so yours made 395 crank,I'dbe happy if we'd get that,by the way are you on stock Jspec turbos??
MONKEYmark
30-03-03, 17:40
u need 400 so you can say to your mates my dads got 400 beany hamster power in his supra
395 wont cut it with your mates :)
Mark Ayling
30-03-03, 17:45
Can someone explain to me - what's this business of "upping the fuelling"? Isn't this something you do to stop the car running lean as a result of other mods?
Or have I missed something here....?? :conf:
Originally posted by Mark Ayling
Can someone explain to me - what's this business of "upping the fuelling"? Isn't this something you do to stop the car running lean as a result of other mods?
Or have I missed something here....?? :conf:
I wasn't very sure about this .........18% of what?
Sorry I wasent clear,but I think that means the car is fuelling 18% more,or the injectors are running higher duty cycle???
Can someone explain this a bit more as I always thought that the safc would increace the cars fueling,but by you lots reactions it ovbiously doesent.
By increacing the boost and fuel you gain more power I thought?
:conf: ,or is the safc just a safety measure so that the car doesnt lean out at high rpm?
Someone explain!?
Cheers.........Usmann
Mark,dont really giv a s*** about me mates,they only get jealous,they used to love the supra,so when we came across one and bought it,they all love the mitsubishi eclipse now!(but deep down I know its the supra:D )
The only real way to run more power is increase the boost unless you've different turbo's or other mods you haven't mentioned. Since you are running stock boost ( how do you know it's 0.9) you will be running near stock power levels. Seeing as the MKiv runs pretty rich as standard you will be losing power by increasing the fuelling without raising the boost. Is there any technical logic behind the adding extra fuel or is it pub logic? The people who have said you have 400+ bhp with those mods are talking out the top of their heads & are best ignored.
Thor,although yout view saddens me,it looks like its the truth,I can tell its 0.9 due to the boost gauge.
The people that told me this are well known,and respected also.so its a shame to hear this,but once the work is done,I'll ask me dad to RR it,and see if what they say is right,oor what you lot are telling me is right???
But in the mean time any others Nathan,Chrise W or Paul W and anybody else feel free to air your view on this subject!
Cheers Thor!!
Mark Ayling
30-03-03, 21:05
I've found in the past that its less worrying not understanding things about your car than it is to have people "setting things up" on your car which they don't understand!!
If that makes sense....?
I get ya Mark,and I am going to question the garage,and see what they say,as they are suppose to know thier stuff.
Maybe they think another supra owner,as people kinda over-exxagerate the power increace of each mod,as they have this image of Air filter 10hp,exhaust 30,and so on,especialy on the supra.
So the garage might think wedont know s*** about the car(dont know that much,but more than the average joe bloggs)
But as I learned today,most of that hype is a load of C***,and I will try and see if these tuners are tryna feed us a load of cobblers!
:mad:
You are beginning to learn, young Usmann ;) :D
The manufacturers exagerrate how much power each of their mods will get you, the shop that sells em exaggerates a bit more, then the unscrupulous buyer will add 10% to impress his mates down the pub. And so, peoples ideas of how much power a certain modification is worth becomes wildly OTT, which leads to disappointment when you hit the dyno. Unless the dyno operator tells you what he thinks you want to hear of course . . . ;)
A good rolling road certainly clears out the bullshit....The best pound for pound mods that showed they did the business IMO at G force were full decat +HKS/BLitz exhaust and boosting to 1.2bar.
Rob O's VVTI went through with these mods and hit 410 or 415bhp. Impressive.
MONKEYmark
31-03-03, 01:03
its the magic 400 bhp i would like to break, would like to do a rolling road fo mine to see what i have,
mods
blitz nur spec
cw de cat pipes
hks 264in 264 ex cams n cam gears
trl fuel cut defence
blitz fmic
running up to 1.4bar with no boost controller or electronics, need fueling checking, and maybe some fueling mods
dont know much about what you will need
12v fuel pump mod
uprated fuel pump
no point going to 550cc injectors with the cost it might be better uprating to a fuel system like 720cc and walbro pumps,might be overkill on stock turbos though. sort of building to a single turbo.
i would guestimate 360-380 Bullshit Horse Power for mine, who knows till it goes on rollers
Whats all this about exagerating by manufacturers next thing your gonna be telling me my iridium plugs havent upped my bhp to 600 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
John:flame Dev
John can I have some of those plugs? They sound much better than the Densos.....;)
Originally posted by u_ali
But in the mean time any others Nathan,Chrise W or Paul W and anybody else feel free to air your view on this subject!
The problem is that you are only at 0.9 bar.
IMO 380~400 bhp is entirely possible on a Mk4 at 1.2 bar with the right fuelling, right plugs etc. and generally running 'how it should be'. (edited to say on stock turbos too).
Without an FMIC though you could easily lose 40bhp of that on a stinking hot day. Still, on a good day, the numbers are possible.
But then I'm probably talking out of the top of my head ;)
Regards,
Nathan
TDI PLC
OK Nathan, shut the top of your head( lol) & tell us what you honestly believe a car running 0.9 bar would make with those mods. I don't think the issue is was it would make a 1.2 bar but 0.9. I could well believe 370-380 @ 1.2 - 1.3 bar.
I really don't know Terry....never really done any with that boost...what do you think? 310 ish? Thats not much more boost than stock but the car will be breathing a lot better, hence the 30bhp or so gain. Shooting from the hip really...
Better keep the top of my head open on this one ;)
Nathan
TDI PLC
Nathan, I think the 330 is pretty fair. I was told on Saturday by someone with a Saxo turbo that Superchips do a 950 bhp chip for the MKIVTT lol, & I went & spent all that money getting 250 bhp less doh!
BS figures with the MKIV are getting more & more common. I know your feelings on this, but people see the big numbers & want to believe them. If you quoted someone 400 bhp for a conversion & another less reputable tuner were to quote 450 bhp for the exact same conversion, where to you think the average guy on this BBS would go! I don't know how people are supposed to sift through the BS & get to the truth, most have to learn the hard/expensive way. This BBS will help but it seems common practice on all forums to elevate figures to increase custom.
oh.............just fallen off my soap box:D
Matt Harwood
31-03-03, 16:41
Although a different scenario, I get exactly the same at work... A cheap nasty sub or amp rated at 'stupid watts' seems to be far more popular than a good quality unit and half the rated power.
People love big numbers! :innocent:
I don't know about you guys but it gets boring trying to explain this over and over...
Mark Ayling
31-03-03, 16:45
What, so you mean those 1000w Alba tweeters you sold me aren't all that after all....? :innocent:
So you lot are saying its more around the 330hp area,when my tuner said its 360 minimum!!!
I know the boost is a little over stock,and so I can understand were you get the 330hp number,.
I understand about that, and i also knw that hp is not a measure of a cas speed(to a certain extent);) ,but I also read that going up 1psi nets around 11hp on the supra,(Jap-perf) is this true or another load of c***!!??
Its seems it all a game of numbers,and a load of hype behind the real truth!!:mad:
Terry,what sort of power youp puttin down???600+?
:eek: :D
Cheers Nathan,can understand about the top of your head!;)
Just take it to G-force and you can stop guessing! :D
Matt Harwood
31-03-03, 17:58
Originally posted by u_ali
Terry,what sort of power youp puttin down???600+?
'bout 350 bhp...
Usmann - yep, thats about the size of it. It's hard to make any correlation between boost pressure and power because so many other things can affect it, charge temperature, cam and ignition timing, turbo sizing, backpressure, head work, and a whole lot more!
When I put my car together last summer, I had no idea what sort of bhp it would produce because only the americans had done that much to a Mk3 and we all know where their bhp numbers come from. How much bhp a car makes, or is supposed to make, is totally irrelevant I reckon - judge your car by how much fun it is to drive! You can easily get caught up in chasing the big numbers, keeping up with the Jones's (or Saunders and Greens lol), and end up with something which has cost you a fortune to build, constantly needs maintaining to keep it running right, and is a complete PITA to drive. That's fine if you only want to do a thouand miles a year in it, but what's the point of that? I'd rather have something I can use and enjoy than a dyno queen. I've never bothered dynoing mine yet, although it did peg the RR that was used to set the fuelling up on at about 280bhp I think.
Matt Harwood
31-03-03, 18:09
Take it to Pod on Sunday.... Who cares what power it's got!
See what times you can get :)
Mark, the 1000w tweeters have been replaced by 10,000w jobbies... They work just fine from a 20w stereo :p
Adam,I understand you totally,but why do we pay money to tuner,so that the bhp is upped.
Its just that im getting two totally different views.
Will phone gforce tm,and get it RR asap,then RR it when its back and see the difference,and confront the tuner
Mid'lifecry'sis
31-03-03, 18:37
Good grief! :D
It's the BHP at the rear wheel that should impress your mates - if they know what rear wheel bhp is of course!!
It's just having fun that's all this is about... Running 1 bar and then bang into fuel cut... reckon I'd be pleased with 350bhp but figure 330 with the mods and a touch of reality.
So is the pod this weekend then????:eek:
Quick change of plans?
Must say Matt, when I was sold my Alpine V12 amp I had expected a jump in the flat 6 performance, but...a.aaaaa.. nothing just the same?;)
On the subject of plugs - both alex and chris I think are selling, ones a club buy denso is it (name???) and the other is (can't remember.... what's best please anyone - I just wanna order to get rid of little loss of power at 1 bar at full acceleration :twak: DUDRSVR/John - let me know your thoughts pal..
PS: News on getting my motor to your paint shop next week ???
:cool:
PS: We all know this guy below is only realy running 0.9bar!!!!!!
:) :p
The only thing me mates now are which trainers are new,and in the car world,anything with a loud exhaust is bloody quick,especially the 1.3 Nova SR RRrrrr......:D :p
Ohh cant make the POD as the garage is blocked in with materials and etc...,also awaiting pump from Japan.
For the ATW figure,they dont know wether the figureis different to the crank figure!!!:D :p
Chris
i put the HKS iridiums in mine and they seem fine , can get you in on the 7th by the look of it .
John:flame Dev
Matt Harwood
31-03-03, 21:14
Originally posted by dudersvr
, can get you in on the 7th by the look of it .
John:flame Dev
:(
Hey Matt
let me know if you can still make the 7th and i'll stick you back in or can move you to the 14th then your all done for bolney .
John:flame Dev
Matt Harwood
31-03-03, 23:16
Looking doubtful...
Get yourself something more positive booked in...
Thanks anyway
Matt
No probs midlife can have your spot he was booked in after you so you can have his if the front ever gets here , if not we just book a new date whenever, at this rate i may get to pay for that stereo after all :p
John:flame Dev
I tend to go with Martin's answer these days - I had RR'd last summer, and it was apparently making 350bhp/375lbft, but I've since found out that I did the run in the wrong gear (4th, not 5th), which could have artificially inflated my torque figure. Won't know until I get it on some rollers again.
If pressed, for full decat and a mysterious variable leak from the actuator hose ;) I say about 350bhp, and a similar amount of torque. I know it's quicker than standard, I know the power drops off at the top end of the revs due to the leak ;) being unable to hold the boost, I know the IC needs replacing before I do any more mods, and I know it'll do 160mph over 1.25 miles.
What it actually does is more important than 'power claims' imo.
Originally posted by Terry S
Nathan,
BS figures with the MKIV are getting more & more common. I know your feelings on this, but people see the big numbers & want to believe them. If you quoted someone 400 bhp for a conversion & another less reputable tuner were to quote 450 bhp for the exact same conversion, where to you think the average guy on this BBS would go!
My God.
Thats one less person on this planet that I don't need to explain it all too....
The worst thing is that the 'tuner' quoting the 'higher' bhp figure will probaly be cheaper as well....you know where I'm coming from...;)
Nice one.
Nathan
TDI PLC
Nathan would agree,but these people arent' cheap!:conf:
Usman, seriously mate, all this sounds right, I also heard about the VVT-i at G-Force, running 1.2b, put out 415 at the crank, but tell me would a non VVT-i running at 1.2b put out 45bhp less than the VVt-i, due to it being a non VVT-i.
Thats what you have to remember with a J-Spec VVT-i, its puts it at the same BHP level as a UK spec, expect it hasnt got the weight or lardy-ness about it, waiting to get shot down in flames.......:flame Dev
Ash im not a VVTI :D ,but cheers for the info anyway!:thumbs:
Yeah, what evryone is saying does make sense,and have to get me dad to phone the garage and confirm his power quotations,I understand what some are saying of enjoying the car not hte power level.But when you pay for a ceratin upgrade and the tuner give you a rough example of power youll be pushing,and then you realise that everybody else are saying your about 30-40hp less to begin with,its a bit of a shame, not that dissappointed as I dont drive/run it ,but me dad is!:flame Dev
Cheers to all for helping me realise the true power level,and im glad that the supra BBS has worked its magic again!:)
Cheers to all, top fellas!!
edited-too many bloody typing errors!!:D
Every man and his dog that owns a Supra seems to have atleast 450bhp:p Its only people on this board that realise the amount of work required to actually acheived this..
A little story of a Supra local to me...All the guys down the gym telling me about this 450-500bhp Supra.I tell them my only dyno'd at 395bhp.Obviously its interesting to me the fact that theres another tuned Supra around...Then this other Supra blows its second turbo....I tried to find out about its mods and eventually got the info...superchipped (FCD+bleedvalve)!! then later decatted (Is that why the second turbo blew?). Anyway my 395bhp seems to have cost me alot more than his 500bhp!!! ;) :D
I agree with Nathan and Terry theres bullshit everywhere and (as Nathan also said) people playing/tuning these cars who do not know what they are doing!!
Glad I found this BB.
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