View Full Version : Single vs twin upgrade?
This is something I posted in supra chat, but might have been the wrong place for it, so I am trying it again here.
I have now resided myself to the fact that I am not going to be able to get the car insured, for now.
So when in doubt, spend silly amounts of money on the car!!
What I have decided to do is, go for a nice twin turbo conversion!!!
My car at current has the following:
Full decat exhaust
Induction kit
BOV
FMIC - this however needs some work, basically the fins are starting to crumble, so I want to replace it, would however just like to have the hardpipes cleaned and reused - is this possible?
Front strut brace
UK Spec brakes
Boost gauge
The things that I need (as far as I know, aside from the actual turbo kit):
Fuel pump - which one is needed?
Fuel injectors - which ones are needed? Can I have direct replacements, so that I dont have to change the fuel rail?
Fuel pressure regulator - is this needed?
Fuel lines - is this needed? or is it just a nice to have?
Wide band O2 sensor and gauge
Oil Cooler
Fully mapable ECU - which one is recommended? eManage, HKS, etc?
Boost controller? - is it needed?
Restrictor ring? - is it needed?
Fuel Cut Defender - is it needed? This has been answered as not needed.
Speed Limit Defender - is it needed?
TRD Style Carbon fibre bonnet - definitely required now.
What else would I need? Anyone on here that has stuck with twins and not gone the big single route? Why do people go single, instead of keeping the twin setup?
What prep work needs to be done, considering that the car is about to stand around doing nothing for 4 - 5 months?
Target date for the work to be done is January February 2007...
Thank you Nic, who has already given me some advise and help.
Thanks,
Graham
What else would I need? Anyone on here that has stuck with twins and not gone the big single route? Why do people go single, instead of keeping the twin setup?
There's a greater selection of turbo's available for a single set-up, plus there's one major factor, cost. You could probably go for a small single for the cost that the twin turbo's would cost on their own, let alone the extra four grand it would cost to do the job *properly*.
The thing is, a big twin set-up is going to be pumping out as much as 850bhp. There's a lot of parts in the system that weren't designed to support that kind of power.
So first and foremost what kind of power would you hope to achieve? (You have to be quite sensible about this. Are you sure you would want to be driving a 850bhp beast in January/February 2007?)
Secondly you need to set a budget. In fact you could probably say you need to set a budget first, and let that dictate the power output. It will always cost you more than you thought, I promise you. ;)
Do you need to replace things like fuel rails, and fuel lines? Maybe not, but it would be a bit of a bitch to find out you did whilst you were mapping.
Other items you'll need to think about are clutches and flywheels. The stocker is going to struggle to cope when you get up to the far side of 550 I would think.
As far as the electronics, like boost controllers etc, it largely depends on what EMS you have. I think most, nowadays can control boost themselves. There's a whole subject in there on it's own.....
The oil cooler, I'm not sure on. I'm not fitting one to start with, but I can monitor oil temps using my AEM ECU, so I'll see how I get on, and if it's an issue then I'll fit an oil cooler. We'll see....
I'll be fitting the components of my big twin set-up over the next few weeks, and I'll be writing up how it goes, so you'll be able to see all the items that I'm fitting.
Best of luck!
What do you mean by 'twins' here?
Are you considering upgrading the standard stuff with hybrids or going for 'big' twins (i.e. two big singles)?
Tony,
Thanks for the info.
Well some of the parts that I am looking at, are the Sard 650cc injectors which use the standard fuel rails.
ECU wise, I was looking at HKS.
I had thought about the clutch, was told that around 500 is the limit. So I would like to see how the standard one handles that.
To answer your questions. Power figure I want is 500 - 550...
What I want to do is, basically get all the supporting mods put into the car when it goes for its engine build, IE ecu, fueling, etc. So that after some time, I can change the turbo and go for the final power figure.
What about the SLD? Or is that removed with the ECU change, like the FCD.
I look forward to reading your write-up, will be very interesting.
Thanks for the response, very interesting read.
Graham
What do you mean by 'twins' here?
Are you considering upgrading the standard stuff with hybrids or going for 'big' twins (i.e. two big singles)?
Was thinking about big twins, not hybriding the standard ones.
After much advice from the members on here and reading up of past experiences, I have pretty decided that the single turbo is going to be the easiest option. From a cost, setup and maintenance point-of-view.
One of my requirements with this car is that remains every day driveable, and I consider everyday reliability to be part of that. If the twin setup is so much more complex, its not really what I want.
G
Single, easier to install, easier to diagnose faults, easier to replace turbos if be, where you need to spend time and money is the fuelling and mapping mate, do your homework here, speak to tuners and get this part right, it can make the difference between a really good 'Set up' and a really poor 'Set up'.
Single, easier to install, easier to diagnose faults, easier to replace turbos if be, where you need to spend time and money is the fuelling and mapping mate, do your homework here, speak to tuners and get this part right, it can make the difference between a really good 'Set up' and a really poor 'Set up'.
Ok, so then it seems that single definitely the way to go...
It is basically those things that I am trying to find out about. Completely open ideas and suggestions... Got a while to go, before I have to make an actual decision on the subject, thats why I am asking so many questions...
The turbo kit that has been recommend to me, is the BoostLogic T61. Is there many people on here with that setup? Would like to know what they are running, IE supporting mods, etc. Experience with the kit? What boost levels they are running? When does boost come on?
Thanks,
Graham
T61 with 650cc's, and supporting mods, stoock engine, running at 1.4 bar boost typically you'd be looking at around anywhere between 500 RWHP to 550 RWHP this obviously can vary either way, its a favourite with the auto boys and spools slightly quicker than the T67.
The turbo kit that has been recommend to me, is the BoostLogic T61. Is there many people on here with that setup? Would like to know what they are running, IE supporting mods, etc. Experience with the kit? What boost levels they are running? When does boost come on?
I think that's probably one of the more common kits on here - a search of the archives will reveal most, if not all, of the information you desire :)
Its starting to sound more and more like the setup that I want.
Will have to do the research into the supporting mods...
Biggest concern is actually the ECU.
G
Ok, so then it seems that single definitely the way to go...
It is basically those things that I am trying to find out about. Completely open ideas and suggestions... Got a while to go, before I have to make an actual decision on the subject, thats why I am asking so many questions...
The turbo kit that has been recommend to me, is the BoostLogic T61. Is there many people on here with that setup? Would like to know what they are running, IE supporting mods, etc. Experience with the kit? What boost levels they are running? When does boost come on?
Thanks,
Graham
Definitely. The commonly available big twin kits (ie the HKS and Blitz ones) would be strangling themselves producing the small amount of boost they would need to make to make those numbers. I think you'd definitely be getting turbo surge.
You could do worse than take a look at Terry Saunders car. His probably has a power figure around that, but it is apparently devastating as a road car, simply because of the extremely well thought out way that all the modifications work together.
hey fella... glad to see you arew thinking about going single... but it isnt cheap, some people say that it can be done for as little as £4k... i spent £12 and still have not finisned Iam having my engine built at xmas and a Bl box fitted then it will be "finished" have a look in my garage for the the speclist fella...
#
I am running a T61 with Auto trans, Autronic sm4 ECU and Autronic cdi, depending on what you want the car for, if its for a fast road car then the 61 is definetly the way to go, my car starts making positive boost by 2K RPM and am on full boost @ 1.4 bar by 3.4K RPM the majority of the our local boys have seen it and been in it, haqving the standalone ECU does give the car the slight edge in performance against other 61's but its all down to the mapper at the end of the day,
the BL kit is defo the one to go for imo, but some others such as PHR are equally as good.
Definitely. The commonly available big twin kits (ie the HKS and Blitz ones) would be strangling themselves producing the small amount of boost they would need to make to make those numbers. I think you'd definitely be getting turbo surge.
You could do worse than take a look at Terry Saunders car. His probably has a power figure around that, but it is apparently devastating as a road car, simply because of the extremely well thought out way that all the modifications work together.
Would that be TerryS on here?? If so, will have a chat to him.
Is there anyone in the Surrey/Reigate area that has gone single? That is up for a chat, drinks are on me....
hey fella... glad to see you arew thinking about going single... but it isnt cheap, some people say that it can be done for as little as £4k... i spent £12 and still have not finisned Iam having my engine built at xmas and a Bl box fitted then it will be "finished" have a look in my garage for the the speclist fella...
#
I am running a T61 with Auto trans, Autronic sm4 ECU and Autronic cdi, depending on what you want the car for, if its for a fast road car then the 61 is definetly the way to go, my car starts making positive boost by 2K RPM and am on full boost @ 1.4 bar by 3.4K RPM the majority of the our local boys have seen it and been in it, haqving the standalone ECU does give the car the slight edge in performance against other 61's but its all down to the mapper at the end of the day,
the BL kit is defo the one to go for imo, but some others such as PHR are equally as good.
Autronic - heard good things about this ECU, but on Subarus and Evos.
Thats some decent figure on the turbo, thanks, as to boost levels and when it comes on, etc.
£4K does seem to be a on the low side. WOW 12K... Thats a lot. The cost is probably one of the main reasons that I am doing this whole thing in 2 phases...
Phases 1 - engine build and all supporting mods, ie fueling, ecu, fmic, cams.
Phase 2 - LSD, suspension, brakes.
Not sure if this should be here, but I definitely consider these things, to be of the utmost of importance. Being able to get the power onto the road, and being able to stop...
Phase 3 - the turbo change when I have the cash.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I have a 6 Speed.
Thanks for the info...
Autronic - heard good things about this ECU, but on Subarus and Evos.
Thats some decent figure on the turbo, thanks, as to boost levels and when it comes on, etc.
£4K does seem to be a on the low side. WOW 12K... Thats a lot. The cost is probably one of the main reasons that I am doing this whole thing in 2 phases...
Phases 1 - engine build and all supporting mods, ie fueling, ecu, fmic, cams.
Phase 2 - LSD, suspension, brakes.
Not sure if this should be here, but I definitely consider these things, to be of the utmost of importance. Being able to get the power onto the road, and being able to stop...
Phase 3 - the turbo change when I have the cash.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I have a 6 Speed.
Thanks for the info...
Sounds like you've got your priorities pretty much right, although I'd be tempted to put the chassis mods before the engine re-build. Safety first and all that ;)
Sounds like you've got your priorities pretty much right, although I'd be tempted to put the chassis mods before the engine re-build. Safety first and all that ;)
Well I do have UK spec brakes on the car... :)
Now that I have the order in which I need to do things, what about some specifics around the ecu and fueling system? Brands, models, etc??
What are the thoughts on cams?? 256 inlet, 264 exhaust?
g
264/264 if you go for a single turbo. You don't need to keep the stagger.
264/264 if you go for a single turbo. You don't need to keep the stagger.
Thats good to know, thanks!
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