View Full Version : Fueling set up for duel fuel pumps
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 20:34
Guys,
I'm busy building my fueling set up with duel pumps. I'm thinking about which way will be best to run the set up and returns. We have thought about the following but would like someone to have a quick look and see if it's a sensible set up or not.
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/fueling.jpg
Also I already have a Walbro in there and just ordered another one but it turned up as an FSE fuel pump... will these two be ok together?
Thanks :)
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 20:38
1 FPR on the RETURN!!!
Sorry mate I'm not very good at this whole thing lol Can you expand on that?
Sorry mate I'm not very good at this whole thing lol Can you expand on that?
in your diagram you have two fpr's. you take them out and put one in the return line
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 20:59
ahhh great stuff thanks. So whats the best way to feel the fuel from the pumps to the rail? Part rubber hose, part braided hose? What about the return line?
ahhh great stuff thanks. So whats the best way to feel the fuel from the pumps to the rail? Part rubber hose, part braided hose? What about the return line?
personally i used braided hose all the way as the pipes are running underneath the car and could possibly be damaged with stones flicking up etc. For the return line i just came out the FPR with rubber fuel hose and mated back up with the existing hardpipe return
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 21:08
Stunning stuff! Thanks mate. Any ideas about the FSE pump and and Walbro?
Stunning stuff! Thanks mate. Any ideas about the FSE pump and and Walbro?
im quite sure that FSE is something to do with Walbro so may well be the same pump. Im sure Martin (lucifer) will know as he sells these
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 21:27
Even better :) It was Martin I bought it off, just wanted to make sure :) Thanks for your help
Heres another setup, used a lot in the states..
http://supra400hptt.homestead.com/files/diagram.jpg
Marty
.
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 21:42
Thanks mate. Forgot about using the stock return form the FSR. Top stuff
Here's my set-up that I ordered the last bits of today :) :-
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 22:08
Yes Tony I saw that the other day... to be completely honest it frightened me lol
FSE = Fuel System Enterprises http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/
Is this a FSE Power Boost Valve?
Yes Tony I saw that the other day... to be completely honest it frightened me lol
LOL, it's more or less the same as the US diagram, maybe with a few extra bits, but at the end of the day, it's got all the same components in, pumps, filter, rail, injectors, FPR. The thing is though, it all soon adds up if you're using aeroquip stuff. I think my order came in just over £900 :blink:
P.S. Steer well clear of that FSE shit. Many people, including myself have had issues with them. I don't think anyone on here has personally had issues with the aeromotive fuel pressure regulators. There was a few "someone I once knew, who once visited a garage, said the mechanic said he knew someone who had heard that one once failed", but nothing conclusive.
[Hijack On]
How is it coming along Tony, you tried Terrys clutch yet?
[Hijack Off]
GeordieSteve
21-06-06, 22:20
FSE = Fuel System Enterprises http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/
Is this a FSE Power Boost Valve?
Nope it's an FSE fuel pump from mkivstore
[Hijack On]
How is it coming along Tony, you tried Terrys clutch yet?
[Hijack Off]
Hopefully this weekend, that reminds me I've got to pm him to sort out a day/time.
FSE fuel pump? Are you sure? Linky?
My fuel setup is pretty much the same as the one Bondango posted as well. It works nicely. Don't use the Paul Kent method of putting the regulator before the fuel rail (but then hey, what did he ever know about cars) ;)
btw well said Tony :)
-Ian
Tony, (or anyone else looking) if you need dry breaks look here.http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=aeroquip
And anyone looking Earls type fittings etc etc should have a look at here
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lfracing/home.htm
Great service, better price than Earls themselves :d
GeordieSteve
22-06-06, 13:44
FSE fuel pump? Are you sure? Linky?
It was advertised as a Walbro. I'll take a pic tonight
Steve,
I think you're getting a little confused maybe. Walbro and FSE are two companies. Walbro make fuel pumps, FSE makes fuel pressure regulators.
IIRC the only pumps mkivstore offer are walbro ones. Either way, you want two walbro pumps (or maybe a single large bosch pump) and 1 aeromotive fuel pressure regulator on the return line.
And anyone looking Earls type fittings etc etc should have a look at here
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lfracing/home.htm
Great service, better price than Earls themselves :d
Try thinkauto.com, it seems to be even cheaper! :)
GeordieSteve
22-06-06, 17:56
Apparently they're the same http://performance.rallynuts.com/render.asp?doc=/fse-fuel-pumps.htm
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/pump/1.jpg
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/pump/2.jpg
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/pump/3.jpg
whats wrong with putting the regulator before the rail, its still regualting rail pressure, as long as its plumbed into the system?
I run one stock feed to one side of the rail, new braided line into the regualtor out the other side into other side of rail, and bottom returning to stock reutrn line.
Because it wont work- Think of a Dam, and the wall being the regulator, one side has all the water and the other side has none - and your injectors are at the side with no water - They arnt gonna get any fuel.
The regulator keeps the fuel pressure feeding the injectors at an optimum pressure, so it needs to be placed at the end of the fuel system.
Wait...im trying to imagine how yours is actully set up lol....
LOL, it will work, and has worked for a few years, its regualtor, its regulates rail pressure, which im senseing though my feed into one side of the rail.
Trust me it works. :)
Now ive read through yours again, i think the only thing managing to keep pressure in your rail is the size of the return orfice in the rail...
remember my FPR gets fed from both sides from each pump!!! so it regualting the fuel pressure through the rail .... and throws the return ovbiously down the bottom.
no offence, but this is really basic stuff, and is known throughout EFI.
I was told by the guy who designs the fuel system for the Williams F1 (and has done for the last 15-20 years, not precisely sure, but it's a bloody long time that he's worked there) that you want to have the FPR on the return, as it's possible to run momentarily lean as the FPR isn't instantaneous in it's reaction to the plenum pressure. By putting the injectors on the pressurised side of the FPR you will avoid this situation arising.
remember my FPR gets fed from both sides from each pump!!! so it regualting the fuel pressure through the rail .... and throws the return ovbiously down the bottom.
no offence, but this is really basic stuff, and is known throughout EFI.
No offence taken (except for the patronising 'basic stuff' comment) i know how EFI systems work thank you, and your way is definately not one which i would use. maybe your description could have been a little more clear. Either your not describing it right or your managing to defy the laws of physics :d
From your description it sounds like your actually using the Regulator to regulate the amount of fuel flowing into the rail from the fuel pumps, and not to maintain the pressure of the fuel in the rail. seeing fuel flow and fuel pressure are totally different entities. The reason the FPR is placed at the end of the fuel system is to maintain the fuel pressure in the system before it, which is in most peoples cases the Fuel rail.
Apparently they're the same http://performance.rallynuts.com/render.asp?doc=/fse-fuel-pumps.htm
Don't believe everything you read....
http://www.walbro.com/
http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/
The Walbro pump has Walbro stamped on it, whereas the FSE doesn't. The gubbins inside may well be made by a third party and then just sold to various repackaging resellers though.
Having said that, with the piss poor quality of the "power boost valve" personally, and you'd have to make your own mind up on this, I wouldn't touch anything that had FSE written on it with a barge pole. Just my 2p. Ok maybe 10p. ;)
GeordieSteve
22-06-06, 23:33
hmmm well I ordered Walbro from mkivstore and even the reciept came with Walbro on it. Just the pump is an FSE. Hope I don't have to send it back coz it took about 5 weeks to turn up in the first place :(
hmmm well I ordered Walbro from mkivstore and even the reciept came with Walbro on it. Just the pump is an FSE. Hope I don't have to send it back coz it took about 5 weeks to turn up in the first place :(
I thought the FSE pumps were those "copies" of the Walbro Pumps that have flooded ebay, as they give equivalent walbro part numbers (GSxxxx etc etc)
any of the Walbros i have got have silver body with Walbro stamped on it, and fitting instructions from Walbro too :blink:
Id ask for a genuine Walbro :D
GeordieSteve
22-06-06, 23:44
Bugger :( That's more time off the road. I'll point Martin this way
Eh? What? you ordered a Walbro, which arrived and has Walbro stamped on it, but you've got an FSE??? I'm missing something here, have you got two pumps there or one? If it's got Walbro stamped on it, it's most likely a Walbro. Do you mean it came in a box with FSE written on it? That would be odd....
I tell you what (now brace yourselves, you're going to like this) This thread is pumpin'. You wouldn't believe how pleased I am with that one!
GeordieSteve
23-06-06, 00:00
I have a Walbro already... ordered from Whifbitz
I needed a second one which I ordered from mkivstore. I ordered a Walbro... it came with a receipt for a Walbro but it was an FSE. No mention of any Walbro stamps anywhere?
im a little confussed and confudled now too lol
Steve you put this picture up......
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/pump/2.jpg
Is this the "walbro" you paid for and received??:blink:
If so, you were how the say in Belfast - Stroked
Ah OK. So if you compare the two, they're not identical? I think you've answered your own question there mate.
I mean I don't know, the FSE pump may be good. They may just havce a bad rep for their FPR's. It's just something that would be in the back of my mind though, do you know what I mean?
Ah OK. So if you compare the two, they're not identical? I think you've answered your own question there mate.
I mean I don't know, the FSE pump may be good. They may just havce a bad rep for their FPR's. It's just something that would be in the back of my mind though, do you know what I mean?
Wouldn't wanna take ANY risks with fuelling either....
GeordieSteve
23-06-06, 00:04
Receipt:
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/pump/receipt.jpg
Fuel pump as above
GeordieSteve
23-06-06, 00:06
I mean I don't know, the FSE pump may be good. They may just havce a bad rep for their FPR's. It's just something that would be in the back of my mind though, do you know what I mean?
Completely... bit worried now. I've shown martin this post so hopefully he can sort it out. Didn't want cause any more problems
Terminator
23-06-06, 00:12
I cant remember where I bought it, but I recieved a walbro pump that is identiacl to one I got from Walbro, but it came in an FSE pump box.:blink:
Receipt:
http://www.thegeordieconnection.com/stevep/supra/pump/receipt.jpg
Fuel pump as above
Got a pic of that blitz sus as well :tumble: (only slaggin Martin if your reading this lol)
GeordieSteve
23-06-06, 00:15
Just checked the pump and it has Walbro GSS 342 on it... so it must be right???:blink:
I would still demand a Walbro box for my Walbro pump :search: lol
Alls well that ends well Steve, whatever that means :)
LOL You guys make me laugh!!!
FSE are the main agents for Walbro here in the UK and they simply pack them up in their boxes. Take off the Foam surround and you will clearly see they are the Walbro motor-sport pump.
There were never any Walbro copies on ebay AFAIK.
Hope this clears everything up.
I'll take them out of the boxes next time!
There were never any Walbro copies on ebay AFAIK.
RACING 255lph Fuel Pumps Include:
GSS341 / GSS342 In Tank Fuel Pump
Wiring Harness Adapter
Fuel Tank Filter
Went for £45 + p&p
would'nt trust it to drain the bath though :d
GeordieSteve
23-06-06, 08:45
Cheers for clearing that up
LOVL.
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdf/13110.pdf
a read of what the people that make the products say, which as youll note is the same as my setup. :)
ps, note how the FPR is located after the injectors yet also before. :)
If i had a schematic of how a FPR worked, o how it would be fun.
WIth my job being to deisgn A/C systems i have an idea of how pressures and massflow rates operate through a tube. :)
give me a bit of time and i wll do a annotated drawing of my system, with a small explanation for those who dont understand the basics or layout of a simple fuel system. A bit of time though, its been over 2 years since i fitted it.
hth
LOVL.
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdf/13110.pdf
a read of what the people that make the products say, which as youll note is the same as my setup. :)
ps, note how the FPR is located after the injectors yet also before. :)
If i had a schematic of how a FPR worked, o how it would be fun.
WIth my job being to deisgn A/C systems i have an idea of how pressures and massflow rates operate through a tube. :)
give me a bit of time and i wll do a annotated drawing of my system, with a small explanation for those who dont understand the basics or layout of a simple fuel system. A bit of time though, its been over 2 years since i fitted it.
hth
No need for a diagram, your using a closed loop on the rail, you did'nt state that in your description you just said the FPR was placed before the rail - amazing how a little clarity makes things easier :d
ah, different terminolaogy, because in reailty I have got it before and after the rail. :) Think about the direction of flow and how the internals of the Aermotive FPR are shaped. :)
Il let you supra tuners ponder on that one. muhahah
thank god, i didnt start the diagram. LOL
thank god, i didnt start the diagram. LOL
See the Diagram in the Aeromotive PDF, well thats how everyone does theres , except we call that placing the FPR at the end of the rail lol, not before it (though it looks like its before it)
Tank--Pump----filter------rail----FPR---return (FPR is placed at the end of the system) so we say at end of rail, as system starts at tank and works way forward.
LOL. I still let you ponder on that one. :)
they are two ways to look at it on my system, thing is though you ahve remeber its an open system,there is no pressure difference between each side of the rail. One pressure, so the regulator can be placed infact anywhere on the way to, or after the fuel rail. It will still regulate the system pressure.
So infact i was correct in saying my FPR is before and after my rail. its a simple fact of understanding that the FPR is BEFORE/AFTER the rails, its one pressure.
Remember there is no difference if you take it from the middle of the rail, or the side, its one pressure, thus that regulator will regualte the whole fuel system pressure, the lines, etc.
HTH
Chris Wilson
23-06-06, 18:13
In the Aeromotive PDF file the reg is still placed after the rail(s) All FPR's control the pressure before the valve, as that's the only way they CAN control pressure as they are a simple spring gate valve. If it's in the feed line from the pump, and BEFORE the rail the only pressure will be any flow restiction in the return line.
ok, when you mean before chris, they is no directional flow across the regualtor, so that means it just senseing system pressure, the only directional arrow is the outlet, which is the bottom, the rest of the -10 ports are for fuel in/out supply.
diagram, its a thousand words, hopefully you guys can see where im coming from.
shoot, anyone know how to convert bitmap to jpeg?
Nope but could do a screen grab and paste into paint and then save as a jpeg?
Matt Harwood
23-06-06, 19:44
I'm certainly no expert on fuel flow, but that looks like a really strange way to do it. Is there a technical reason why?
your a star Koptie. :)
Some backpeddling here :d Looks like your second pump is feeding the fpr?
Usmann, your showing a flow (presumed) arrow away from the fpr, how does that work then?
LOL,- no backpeddleing here bud. just straight facts put into practice.and it works. :)
BTW, its also how BL fuel system routing instructions come too. :D
No offence but i know its correct, a diff way, but correct, and it works. So not much more to be said on the subject really. I think i covered it in my last few posts.
I don't see how the pump flowing to the FPR can be contributing to the flow through the rail, as it's pumping in the opposite direction??
Surely the pump going to the rail is the only pump supplying fuel to the rail and the second pump is effectively pumping straight back into the tank?
The hose in the diagram between the rail and the pressure regulator, which way is the fuel flowing through that? If it's towards the regulator, then the second pump isn't really contributing any flow. If it's going the other way, then the pump going directly to the rail isn't contributing?
Chris Wilson
25-06-06, 01:12
Two arrows pointing in opposite directions?? Bizarre flow chart, very, very bizarre in fact. What's the word I'm looking for? Err, wrong! :)
Just noticed that diagram now!!! so my theory that the fuel pressure was there due to the orfice size on the return port on the rail goes straight out the window - he dont use one in the rail!!
the only pressure i can see there with that diagram is that of the fuel flow from each pump acting upon each other when the meet in the rail??? i take it thats when the arrows meet each other.......:blink:
Think il stick to my well used and trusted method of setting up fuel systems :sly:
Two arrows pointing in opposite directions?? Bizarre flow chart, very, very bizarre in fact. What's the word I'm looking for? Err, wrong! :)
lol, subtle Chris, subtle. ;) :D
LOL. thanks for you opinions guys. all noted.looks like no ones actually read my post on system pressure. Dont know if you remember the early toyotas use to have the FPR in the tanks next to the pumps. Not totally suitable for this application of performance but similar principle.
ps, Ill let the car do the talking. :)
have fun.
Sorry mate, but it's just wrong. You may have pressure agreed, but the flow, which at the end of the day is the important bit, is only being supplied by one pump.
I read your post on pressure. So the system is just at one pressure. Fine, I can see how that is true. But how's the 2nd pump contributing to the fuel flow? It's not, infact if anything it's hindering it, by pumping in the opposite direction.
If you could explain which direction the fuel is flowing in the hose between the rail and the fpr, that would clear it all up in my eyes.
Tony have you seen a schmatic of inside a Aermotive FPR?
the 2nd pump is pumping opposite the first, agreed, but its a fixed volume, what happens when 2 flowrates approach one another in a fixed volume? they cannot expand, thus the pressure of the fuel increaces.
fuel flow doesnt count as much as pressure because it it doesnt matter which way the fuel moves in the rail, but yet that its keep constantly full,its always pressureised,remeber this isnt intercooler piping,not air movement when Volume is changed, yet liquid, andvolume is fixed.
the system is held at a constant state of pressure by the reg, and bled off when required form any point.
Its a simple fuel system, as long as the lines and rail are maintained with the correct pressure of fuel, flow doesnt matter, its one pressure, bar the return line.
look at the aermotive pdf file, do you think that the fuel in each rail is isolated from each other?
I hope this clears my point. Fuel flow doesnt account for much, because all is know is that Justin agrees with my setup and so do BL. and many other people. And its managed to supply enough fuel for me to be 10.5 AFR at 36psi boost on my ok sized turbo. So both pumps are contributing. :) :)
ps, it also managed over 740rhhp at 29psi 2 years ago. bit of facutal info there for ya.
GeordieSteve
26-06-06, 19:36
Anyone know the widths of the hoses coming from the fuel pumps? 8mm?
I was told they are -6, but I'm not so sure.
GeordieSteve
26-06-06, 20:32
Cheers matie. I'll top being a lazy git and just measure them :)
Soonto"HAS"soop
26-06-06, 20:47
I understand the theory you're using Usmann, but why not just have each pump feeding each end of the rail and then returning from the centre of the rail? That is what I don't understand.
I see some issues that could come up from using it the way you have it drawn, but I'd have to do some calculations to see if it would affect anything in reality. And I can't be arsed to right now.
A little light at the end of the tunnel. LOL
Soon to, It was something i was trying out, if it didnt work i would have changed back to a normal FPR on return line. But it does and has, and rail prs goes up instant with boost.
Soont to, any other POV is welcomed mate, just i dont like people slating something which a) they dont understand b) that works.
Soonto"HAS"soop
26-06-06, 21:09
I can see the fact the pressure in the lines and rail will increase with the two pumps, not a problem, but a problem I can see is that it might take slightly longer to get to higher pressures. But as I said I would have to do calculations with regards to pipe diameters, pipe lengths etc etc, and I really can't be arsed, and because you say you're having no trouble. That could be down to the fact it is fine, or that the little time it takes to get the pressure up is within a period that it doesn't really matter.
If I was looking to upgrade I would have a think and put pencil to paper, but I went the central line from the rail return and followed the norm.
Soont to, any other POV is welcomed mate, just i dont like people slating something which a) they dont understand b) that works.
:d So as long as that POV agrees with yours then.
Still not quite explained which way that fuel on the hose between the rail and regulator is going though. Which ultimately tells you which pump is supplying the fuel that's going through the injectors. I just can't see how it can be as efficient as two pumps contributing to the flow going through the injectors. I can potentially see a couple of other issues with your explanation, but at the end of the day this isn't going anywhere, but round in circles.
It works for you, you're happy with it, and the figures you're getting are good. Fair enough, we'll leave it at that. :)
thats fine Tony. why dont you tell me the issues you have with my explanation .... ill be happy to learn something new.
WHy would the direction matter, theyre pipes that are always full of fuel, your too hung up on direction, both lines and rails volumes are constantly full.Direction of fuel flow would matter if the volume of the tube was not full, as youd have greater fuel velocity ....
My system gets upto pressure just like a FPR onthe return line system.
I dont see how you guys dont understand/agree with this system, as alot of others in the industry shall we say dont have issues with it.
Your right it does seem to work, im not here to boast about it, but here i have you guys telling me its not going to work, when i clearly has, and im trying to make your understand my Perspective.
Tony, you still didnt answer my Q bud on the Aermotive FPR.
No traders/Supra specialists have any input ...... :innocent:
Yes I do actually but I am waiting for more banter!
I can see why you think it works as I made the same mistake when I looked at the diagram, but after much consideration (and I'm still thinking and reading) I have an issue with where the 2 pressurised feeds meet, ie not in the rail.
Nope sorry, im in the :
" It will work but the pumps will not be supplying the same pressure of fuel to the rail. Pump 2 will simply apply more pressure to the return line, thus working No1 pump harder " - Camp
LOL. :)
Waht do you think happens to the fuel on the right hand side of the regulator from the rail, do you think it is isolated from the 2nd pumps supply?
guys these are tiny pipes with not long runs, its a simple system, look at the aermotive PDF, do you think that the pressure in each rail is monitored seperatley, or that its taken as one pressure and regulated because the fuel from meach rails meet. ??
They are not diecetional arrows on the regs, they are setup to take pressure in/out, whatever as long as they see fuel in thier ports, that gets regualted.
Have you seen inside a Aermotive Reg, they offer no restriction, so both pumps contribute and the systems works as a whole ONE equal pressure ...
thats fine Tony. why dont you tell me the issues you have with my explanation .... ill be happy to learn something new.
WHy would the direction matter, theyre pipes that are always full of fuel, your too hung up on direction, both lines and rails volumes are constantly full.Direction of fuel flow would matter if the volume of the tube was not full, as youd have greater fuel velocity ....
My system gets upto pressure just like a FPR onthe return line system.
I dont see how you guys dont understand/agree with this system, as alot of others in the industry shall we say dont have issues with it.
Your right it does seem to work, im not here to boast about it, but here i have you guys telling me its not going to work, when i clearly has, and im trying to make your understand my Perspective.
Tony, you still didnt answer my Q bud on the Aermotive FPR.
Mainly because you don't seem open to criticism.
Yep I've got quite a good schematic of a pressure regulator (admitedly not a aeromotive, but as they all work in the same way....) In fact IIRC there's one in the AEM EFI basics PDF.
I see what your saying about the fuel meeting at the regulator, but that's not what I see as the issue. It's the flow going through the rail, past the open injectors that needs to be maximised...
OK think of this, (try not to get bogged in the mechanics of this...) If you replaced the pump going directly to the FPR with a pressurised air supply, you would have the same amount of pressure in the rail due to the restriction it's causing, and the reactive force that it's cauding against the flow fromt he other pump, right? So now you really have only got 1 pumps worth of mass flow going past the injectors, with that 1 pump doing all the work to supply that flow.
With the pumps both going to the rail and then onto the regulator and then returning to the tank, you've got 2 pumps supplying the same amount of pressure, but doing half the amount of work to supply the fuel flow.
OK well anyway, I'm done. Basically you've done it your way, and that's cool. I'm just not going to do the same, as I think the other way will work better. We're clearly not going to agree, so I'll stop here, I'll keep reading the thread, and if you manage to show where it's a benefit over the other way, who knows I might just use it! ;)
no offence, but having someone tell me something wont work, when it clearly has and over 2.2bar you can understand my frustration.
I never said it was BETTER than the normal method, just something iv done and its worked,pretty good i might add.
i suppose the -10 regs are better at flowing.
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