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Brakes


Alex
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Who's got 'em? How much do you want for them? Will the brake pedal actually

travel less distance -especially if I add Castrol SRF or other equivalent

High performance brake fluid. How else can I get my brake pedal to travel

a shorter distance and give it a more sporty feel, currently there is under

normal braking about 1-3" inches of travel depending on how hard I wish/need

to brake and its a bit off putting.

 

Regards

 

Alex Holdroyd

(just finished dodging a kamakazi cat!)

 

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I have them on my mkiv. They helped the pedal travel a bit, but then I had appalling brake travel before. I also run Chris Wilson brake pads which tend to help a bit with braking.

 

I dont use SRF fluid, I cant remember what fluid I am using but I know its about half the price of SRF and has never given me any problems even after 15 hard laps of Donington.

 

If you want a set the guy to talk to is Leon, he's based in North London and can be called on 07956 285219.

 

JB

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When/if you get the answers, can you let me know what/how/where too?

I've had my TT now for 3 months and the brakes are extremely exciting when on the German Autobahns. I've been told a UK set of disks and calipers would be an extremely cost-effective solution but not to hold my breath looking for them.

The Brembo and AP kit looks a touch expensive, given that I'm not looking to race it, only to not hit the slow BMW in front.

 

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Theres been a lot of discussion about the UK brakes, you can fit them to an import but the chances of making your wheels fit afterwards are slim to say the least. The stock 17" wheels have a huge front offset so that they can fit past the calipers and most of the wheels on the imports will not have the same offset.

 

The alternative is to use uprated brake pads. I use Chris Wilson competition pads which make the brakes at least as good, if not better, than a set of stock UK brakes. Problem is they squeal like buggery, so Chris also does some fast road pads which dont make any noise but are almost as good. Portfield pads are also worth trying, Paul Whiffin from this BBS can get hold of them.

 

JB

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What impresses me about this site is not just the huge reservoir of knowledge, but the efficiency with which answers are dispatched.

 

I received notification on my mobile phone (courtesy of Vodafone) that an email had just been delivered to me and that the subject was [MKIV Technical]. On immediately accessing my email, I hit the link and went straight to this entry.

 

How much more real-time do you need?

 

Thanks for the truly excellent input. If I tell you I have 18" Axia wheels, would that give you any clues as to whether the UK spec callipers would fit?

 

Regards

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18" wheels give you more of a chance but the chances are still pretty slim. Blitz do 2 versions of their 18" wheels, one with the offset for import brakes and one with the offset for UK brakes. The visible difference is huge. Its not the diameter that matters, its the distance that the spokes come out from the centre hub. The only way to be sure if to put your wheels onto a car with UK brakes. Of course this is all assuming you dont have one of the 1998 onwards cars which apparently have different hubs.

 

If it was a simple upgrade everybody would have done it and there would not be any uk brakes left.

 

JB

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OK.

 

Until I can try it out, I discovered (I think) how to use the picture of my car on the JIC site in my signature.

If this works, you should be able to take a limited look at the wheels and give me a 'best-guess'.

 

I think I'm going with the CW pads by the sounds of things.

 

Where can I buy new import-spec disks from? I might as well do the job properly.

 

Rgds

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UK brakes are as rare as rocking-horse poo, but they are HUGE by comparison to the Jap spec. Hence the difficulties with the wheels.

 

They slot straight on to the Jap car. Only thing in the way is the stock splash-guard but this you junk anyway. Best also to use braided hoses which does improve pedal-feel somewhat. Also consider replacing the rears as they are bigger too.

 

There is a concern in my mind about F/R brake bias, following the fitment of larger fronts. I was going to do some research on this last year, but took my car off the road for other mods before I got chance. I fitted the front Brembos together with UK rears and there doesn't feel like there are any bias problems. The UK fronts are only a tad smaller than the Brembos and I'm not sure if UK fronts coupled with Jap rears would be a good combination, bias-wise.  

 

As for fluid, SRF is recommended for use with carbon pads, fitted to Jap spec brakes, as this combination runs much hotter - to the point where the temperature limits of ordinary fluid can be exceeded. Bigger brakes have a higher mass which causes them to run cooler by comparison. So ordinary DOT 5.1 will be fine.

 

As regards fitment: measure the distance between the narrowest point from the inner of your wheel spokes and the surface of the disc and I'll let know know if they will fit or not. Also, what year is your car?

 

I happened to glance through the posts on the other list and noticed you were after info. on ICE fitment. I have basically already done the same thing as you are asking about. If you post to this list I'll be able to give you some detailed answers as I'm not a member of the other list.

 

Yours,

J

 

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looking at the pic I would say its highly unlikely that they will fit over UK brakes. Take a look at a car with stock wheels

http://www.btinternet.com/~branners/resources/gallery/0006024.jpg

and see how far out the wheel comes from the hub. If you can find out what width your front wheels are that might give a bit more of a clue.

 

Chris Wilson can also supply disks, as can Leon. Chris is based near Chester and Leon is in North London. Stock discs with uprated pads seems to work pretty well.

 

JB

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Ash,

 

There is a new thread under Audio!

 

Thanks for the info on brakes, I might be able to get hold of some Lotus Esprit 4-pot AP Racing brakes - from my future father in law who works there. I'll get to try before I buy as well so I can double check the fitment. Will the ABS still work if I use a totally different brake? Is the ABS good enough to worry about. Does the official AP Racing and Brembo kit allow for the ABS?

 

Cheers

 

Alex H

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Changing the brake calipers, whether for the UK spec or Brembo's or AP's, or whatever, doesn't affect the ABS at all.

 

Though what I did find was, at first, the ABS came in much more often. This was because I was so used to having to stomp on the old Jap-spec brakes and it took me a short while to modulate the required pedal-pressure to suit the more efficient Brembos.

 

Yours,

 

J

 

ps I'll come back to you later on the ICE questions... have to get some work done! :)

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Once again, many thanks.

 

While sitting in the perpetual jam leaving London on the A40 this afternoon, I used my time to make some phone calls (well actually, nothing new there).

 

I discovered that my local Toyota agent is happy to supply import spec discs for my TT. I also discovered that my local trade supplier has the import spec discs listed and can do next day delivery if needed.

 

If I don't use my tools they'll only get rusty, so, other than pads, it comes down to price, price and price.

 

I'm getting seriously amazed with how much easier it is to get parts and support for an imported vehicle than I ever expected.

 

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Yep, Toyota on the whole are really good. Not only that, I have developed a Toyota contact who has proved exceptional. They even have the UK and import CD Rom data for any Toyota vehicle... never mind the MKIV. :)

 

Plus, they give me at least 10% discount on anything I buy, together with a free MOT every year on the 3 Toyotas I have. So I'm their biggest fan. :)

 

Yours,

J

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Quote: from Paul Booth on 7:45 pm on June 12, 2001[br]Once again, many thanks.

 

I discovered that my local Toyota agent is happy to supply import spec discs for my TT. I also discovered that my local trade supplier has the import spec discs listed and can do next day delivery if needed.

 

How much are they quoting you for the discs?

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I've got a pair of new Q&H rear discs coming now from my local supplier at £30 a piece. Paul Whiffin has a set of fast road pads for me and my front discs only require a couple of thou skimmed to be as-new (no real wear just not perfectly flat and I want to start with a clean sheet).

 

Here's interesting:

I contacted an old friend up in Oldham this p.m.. He supplies custome made industrial and performance Aeroquip hoses for everything from mining equipment to full blown racers.

He told me he wouldn't supply me with stainless hoses for road use because:

1. Stainless overbraid onto alloy or stainless-on-steel end fittings are not MOT legal since the new regulation came in (it's a salt thing)

2. He's not sure about the legality, or long term safety, of stainless overbraid onto stainless end fittings.

3. Re-usable end fittings are illegal whatever and he's not prepared to make up crimped hoses as a freebee (damn)

4. He's a friend (?) and he doesn't want me using hoses with ends which may corrode off over Winter.

 

If I was using it on the track, no issues, as someone would be under it every event.

He's right, there's almost no chance of me going under it when there's salt on the roads.

 

Anyone know about the legality of stainless overbraid into crimped stainless end fittings?

 

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According to someone in the hose business for 30+ years.

 

I guess the cat makes it a double whammy, if they want to nail you. Let's see, will that stop me removing my cat when I get my Nur spec tube? duh.... Nope!

 

It's like my number plates, no one is going to say anything unless they have cause to stop me for something really naughty, then they load you up with the minor infractions. E.g. in my youth I was done for speeding and they noticed I hadn't displayed my current tax disk, which was sitting on a shelf at home. They did me for speeding AND failure to display a current disk but would not have done so if if I'd been stopped for a random check.

 

I'm going to call the Ministry tomorrow and get the full definition on the legality on stainless hoses, once I get back from Powerstation.

 

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Quote: from Phil Wall on 11:43 pm on June 13, 2001[br]Can't wait for your post about the ministry, as I have just fitted braided lines to my son's car. MOT due next week:angry:

If they ask tell them the ends aren't stainless, just new one yesterday.:)

 

Rich

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I know this is a bit cynical but it's what I use to do 20 years ago when I could afford to go rallying; use an MOT testing station that:

1. doesn't read trivial regs

2. doesn't understand the technicalities

3. doesn't think banning obvious 'improvements' make sense and uses their discretion

4. just don't give a damn

 

I have a large testing station near me that employs trained rock-apes and wouldn't know a braided brake hose from lycra stocking (guess where I'm taking mine once I've got the correct hoses fitted.

 

If you go to Kwik-Fit for an MOT, they'll just tell you that you need knew shocks or new tyres or your tracking's out (they're told to do this, they're not just idiots) and they won't notice the hoses.

 

My personal concern (particularly in light of what my friend who, although got somewhat anal after he passed 50, is extremely knowledgeable about high pressure hoses) is that certain braid/end-fitting combinations are blatantly potentially lethal on the road.

 

If you think about it, salt and alloy really doesn't mix and many people like to fit the pretty anodised end-fittings. Without weekly/monthly inspections by a hose expert, or regular changing, these hoses are going to become dangerous after a dose of road-salt.

 

He lectured me:

The strength of a braided hose is in the braiding, not the teflon tube, and once the braiding and/or end-fitting joint is compromised the first time you stomp the pedal the tube bursts with dramatic effects. The most common manner in which this happens is when it gets hit by a rock thrown up by the wheel.

"So use a cover spring" I said. Then you have the end-cup the spring fits in and this collects road salt in winter causing the end-fitting to corrode VERY quickly, he countered.

 

Personally, I am going to aim for the combination he was uncertain about, that being stainless overbraid into crimped (not re-usable) solid stainless end-fittings (not stainless plated mild steel which are common, apparently). If that costs me a little more and I have to (shudder) pay my friend to do the hoses for me under duress, then so be it. I'm going to make damn sure my hoses are really cleaned every time I need an oil change.

 

I think that if the person at risk is well informed and has a liberal portion of common sense the risks are reduced to near zero. Hell, how often do you actually check your brake fluid levels, standard hoses etc. now?

 

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I'm pleased this information came about as I was considering braided hoses for my car. On what I have heard there is no way I am going to have these things fitted. I have been onto the Aeroquip web site and note that they refer to their hoses under the heading of "Motorsport" .... no mention of road use.

 

With this in mind there must be a way to obtain better performing brake lines without resorting to braiding...any ideas.

 

 

Gavin

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I just got back from Powerstation after my 4.5k medical, nice clean & fresh Silkolene in her pipes now.

 

Dirk hasn't heard about the road application issue on braided brake hoses and has no opinion either way, not being familiar with the detail. (politician).

 

I just spoke to the "Vehicle Standards & Engineering" department at the Ministry of Transport in London and apparently my question goes beyond 'is it in the MOT guidelines'; they think this needs answering properly. Unfortunately, the person competent to do this is not in until tomorrow. He will be programmed to call me and as soon as he does I will post his input.

 

Incidentally, my hose manufacturing friend did say that flexibles do age and will exhibit elasticity way before they show visible signs of wear. His suggestion was to replace the hoses at regular intervals with high quality non-braided hoses (I know, I know. Won't braided hoses last the same anyway even if abused by salt?)

 

It's important to note, it's not the stainless braid which is the problem (if it has a protective jacket - spring or sleeve), it's the point its joined to the end-fittings. Alloy or plated mild steel mixed with road salt causes horrendous electrolytic corrosion and a breakdown at the interface.

It remains my belief (subject to input from MoT) that protected stainless overbraid crimped to solid stainless end-fittings will outlast me and the car. (Reminds me of the watch that is guaranteed for life; if it fails the spring slashed your wrist. )

 

Completely off the point, Dirk (Powerstation) said SRF was a total pain in the proverbial if you're not taking it on the track regularly. It requires a total flush of the system and SRF absorbs water at such a high rate that it has to be replaced at very regular intervals to be doing its job properly. He said unless you're racing it, Dot 5 is fine (SRF believers take it up with him, not me).

 

 

(Edited by Paul Booth at 3:15 pm on June 14, 2001)

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