View Full Version : 500 BHP on Hybrids?
Is 500 bhp (UK measurement:p) attainable on hybrid turbos? Thats the figure in my head I want for my car and I like the current turbo config so whats the score?
Thanks in advance.
Darren
Originally posted by Darren
Is 500 bhp (UK measurement:p) attainable on hybrid turbos? Thats the figure in my head I want for my car and I like the current turbo config so whats the score?
Thanks in advance.
Darren
At the crank yes. I believe Terry S, made just over 500bhp on the dyno.
Depends on the build.. i've got turb tech hybrids and supposedly they are good for 550 at the crank.. others may be less, may be more.
Its heat that is the enemy of Hybrid systems.
Keeping the EGT's down with the restrictive manifold is a hard task. But to get a better manifold is cost prohibitive.
Some really good hybrids with a custom manifold, and you could well get 500HP at the wheels!
Depends how far you want to go with them. If you really want a lot of power, then perhaps a small single turbo (SP59?) with suit the job better, rather than extracting as much as possible out of hybrids.
Can't see you getting 500 WHEEL bhp Syed. Thats almost 600 flywheel.
Yes 500bhp *flywheel* is more than possible, but the manifold is a big restriction. I actually melted a GReddy EGT probe! Speak to Leon.
Thanks guys..other than the hybrids what parts am I likely to have to stump up for?!
Darren:stupid:
Matt Harwood
08-02-03, 09:36
Fuelp pump, injectors and somekind of fuel controller... And someone to set it all up...
What you planning Darren?
"" Matt Harwood ""
"" 1/4 mile wheelspinner! ""
Like the 'heading' Matt - it made a luvly noise from the side of the
track, by the way.....sort of like a Scooby exhaust noise...or, an
Audi Quattro rally car ! !:p
[the RLTC cutting in & out that is..]
Matt Harwood
08-02-03, 20:55
It went like one too... One that had had hald it's plugs removed! :eek:
Fuelp pump, injectors and somekind of fuel controller... And someone to set it all up... What you planning Darren?
Matt,
I am planning on 500bhp!:D
I think that will be sufficient for fast road use ;)
Thanks for the input.
Darren
Matt Harwood
09-02-03, 01:21
What turbo's you looking at... :innocent:
Matt,
Need to find some that are known quantities...There seem to be hybrids and hybrids. I think hybrids etc are a bit of an investment and you need to get some tried and tested ones...Any ideas mate I think you are in the same boat as me?? ie thinking bout the next step........
Darren
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 01:47
With the VVti you might be better running the stock ones to the limit and concentrating on charge cooling to the max. You should be able to get 480 out of the stock ones, I doubt you'd safely get 500 though, especially on pump fuel.
Off topic I know...
What car's your avatar Chris? Is it your new toy or a previous one?
With the VVti you might be better running the stock ones to the limit and concentrating on charge cooling to the max
Chris
Sorry can you explain more about 'concentrating on charge cooling'? I'm running at 1.2bar at the moment on the turbos what are you suggesting we go to.
Thanks this is interesting.
Darren
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 11:04
Originally posted by Thorin
Off topic I know...
What car's your avatar Chris? Is it your new toy or a previous one?
Err, I WISH!! Lottery win = one of those in the garage :p
It's a Lola 92 / 10 sports GT racer with a Judd V10 F1 engine. Sort of a favourite of mine, but very expensive
So what do you have to do to an F1 engine to make it reliable enough for 6/12/24-hour GT racing? Just reduce the rev limit or is it more involved than that?
It'll look nicer once it's been painted . . . ;)
Darren,
He means cool the air coming into the engine as much as possible.
IE
FMIC - not necessarily an off the shelf one
Water Injection
Cold Feed Airbox
Chris,
Have you got a new toy yet?? Or are you waiting till the season starts in ernest? :)
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 22:10
The Judd V10 in the Lola, for example, will run tamer cams, so won't rev as high, probably less compression, too. It's the revs that kill F1 engines longevity. It will also be bigger in capacity, probably a 4 litre, by boring / stroking.
Look better after painting... ? You must be joking, I want a snow white one, and ONLY a snow white one <G>
[pity we cant use the A/C to Charge-Cool the intake :p
'specially as you're supposed to use it on/off through the whole
year to keep it in good nick.....:) ]
:stupid:
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 22:13
Alex: No, no new toy. Getting withdrawal symptoms now, need a speed fix urgently :( It's nice having a wodge of money in the bank, but I'd rather have another toy :innocent: Was hoping to have found something interesting that wouldn't depreciate too much by now, but it ain't happened yet.
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 22:17
Originally posted by Steve W
[pity we cant use the A/C to Charge-Cool the intake :p
'specially as you're supposed to use it on/off through the whole
year to keep it in good nick.....:) ]
:stupid:
Janspeed and others tried this, Janspeed with a Ferrari. Very complex and not successful. The heat needed to be removed far exceeds the capacity of any sensibly sized A/c refrigeration plant for a cars underbonnet space and engine loadings. No good having a potential 40 HP gain from charge refrigeration if driving the `fridge uses 55 HP :eek:
Shame, I was just designin' the flexie-hose to go from the
screen ducts, out the window, and down to the front of the
bonnet:p
I'll get me thinkin' hat back on.......:sly:
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 22:23
Originally posted by Darren
Chris
Sorry can you explain more about 'concentrating on charge cooling'? I'm running at 1.2bar at the moment on the turbos what are you suggesting we go to.
Thanks this is interesting.
Darren
What i was meaning was the added complexity of running the VVti from an aftermarket ECU, and mapping the VVti stuff might make it more economic to keep stock turbos and ECU, run them as hard as safe, and concentrate on dropping chrage temps, but acepting you might not get to the 500 BHP figure safely. I still think any turbo upgrade, be it to single, twin parallels, or a hybrid sequential pairing needs an aftermarket ECU to bring out the true potential. Being VVti means added complexity and expense.
Originally posted by Chris Wilson
Alex: No, no new toy. Getting withdrawal symptoms now, need a speed fix urgently :( It's nice having a wodge of money in the bank, but I'd rather have another toy :innocent: Was hoping to have found something interesting that wouldn't depreciate too much by now, but it ain't happened yet.
How about a Porker Supercup car for a bit of fun! :) I hear Porsche's don't depreciate that much! :D
You could bomb round in it till you found the right car.
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 23:18
Originally posted by Alex Holdroyd
How about a Porker Supercup car for a bit of fun! :) I hear Porsche's don't depreciate that much! :D
You could bomb round in it till you found the right car.
I'm sure it would be GREAT fun, but my budget doesn't run to Porsche Cup cars as a temporary run around I'm afraid :(
My 740 estate is my current run around:cool:
Originally posted by Chris Wilson
I'm sure it would be GREAT fun, but my budget doesn't run to Porsche Cup cars as a temporary run around I'm afraid :(
My 740 estate is my current run around:cool:
I wasn't meaning, use it to nip down the shops in!!! :)
I mean't to rip around the track...anyway...
Originally posted by Chris Wilson
Alex: No, no new toy. Getting withdrawal symptoms now, need a speed fix urgently :( It's nice having a wodge of money in the bank, but I'd rather have another toy :innocent: Was hoping to have found something interesting that wouldn't depreciate too much by now, but it ain't happened yet.
How about one of these?? I worked on this one at the Daytona 24hrs in 98 and 99. Best sounding racecar I have ever heard!!
Chris Wilson
09-02-03, 23:53
Originally posted by Gordon Flynn
How about one of these?? I worked on this one at the Daytona 24hrs in 98 and 99. Best sounding racecar I have ever heard!!
Nice, but prefer the Lola, and the Judd V10 sounds just fine to me :p Judd V10 (http://www.formula3.freeserve.co.uk/judd.mp3)
Chris,
You have email.
Darren
Now I thought the biggest restriction to hybrids was the exhaust manifold? It doesn't flow enough so the EGT's go up too high before the hybrids reach the edge of their efficiency map? Surely the cost of buying, installing, and mapping an aftermarket ECU to sequential twin operation would not be offset by the little gain in return? No higher boost or anything due to the manifold restriction, maybe some faster spooling or low down response or something thanks to sorting the ignition timing?
I'm all in favour of ECU's for any single setup, as it's so wildly different to the stock design, but hybrids? As I'm interested in taking hybrids as far as possible while still remaining non-handgrenade, enlighten me :)
Also, I dread to think how much that Lola costs if you think it's "very expensive"!! This from the man who says a good big single conversion on a Supra would be £20,000 if done properly and that's quite a bargain...
-Ian
edited not for spelling, for once, but to make more sense...
Chris Wilson
10-02-03, 16:02
Originally posted by Ian C
Now I thought the biggest restriction to hybrids was the exhaust manifold? It doesn't flow enough so the EGT's go up too high before the hybrids reach the edge of their efficiency map? Surely the cost of buying, installing, and mapping an aftermarket ECU to sequential twin operation would not be offset by the little gain in return? No higher boost or anything due to the manifold restriction, maybe some faster spooling or low down response or something thanks to sorting the ignition timing?
I'm all in favour of ECU's for any single setup, as it's so wildly different to the stock design, but hybrids? As I'm interested in taking hybrids as far as possible while still remaining non-handgrenade, enlighten me :)
Also, I dread to think how much that Lola costs if you think it's "very expensive"!! This from the man who says a good big single conversion on a Supra would be £20,000 if done properly and that's quite a bargain...
-Ian
edited not for spelling, for once, but to make more sense...
The main problem is the exhaust housing size of the stock sequentials is very small to promote very low RPM spool up. Simply put, if you buy hybrids the compressor housing and wheel may be bigger and more air flow will be created, but if there is then a bottleneck formed by the turbine (exhaust) housing size of the turbos, this gas can no longer efficiently leave the head. The turbine (cast iron) part of the housings are unique and specific to the MKIV TT family of engines and as such cannot be changed, although the compressor side can, or at least has enough material within for machining.
A 92-10 Lola is for sale at Simpson Engineering down south, circa 100,000 UK I think. Jane refuses to live in a tent, so short of a lottery win, there it stays, as far as my input will allow... :mad:
So it's the turbo impeller housing that's the bottleneck and not the manifold? Bugger. Nothing that can be done with those, then? Are you agreeing that the exhaust flow out of the head through the turbos is the basic bottleneck once you've got a hybrids system? So an ECU would really only be icing on the cake sorta thing?
And if I spent 100,000 quid on a second hand car it would have to weigh at least four tonnes so I thought I got my money's worth, not some unpainted GRP thing I could carry home under my arm :) Perhaps you could compromise, have the car, and live in the bathroom? :D
-Ian
Chris Wilson
10-02-03, 20:56
Originally posted by Ian C
So it's the turbo impeller housing that's the bottleneck and not the manifold? Bugger. Nothing that can be done with those, then? Are you agreeing that the exhaust flow out of the head through the turbos is the basic bottleneck once you've got a hybrids system? So an ECU would really only be icing on the cake sorta thing?
And if I spent 100,000 quid on a second hand car it would have to weigh at least four tonnes so I thought I got my money's worth, not some unpainted GRP thing I could carry home under my arm :) Perhaps you could compromise, have the car, and live in the bathroom? :D
-Ian
The manifold is also a restriction, but the real bugbear is the turbo housings themselves which would impossible / mega expensive to have cast in a larger size.
I have tried most mental gymnastics to think of ways to buy an exotic race car, all have had "snags" :D
Hear that?
That's the sound of CW typing up a new pricelist! expect a 15% price hike! :)
Someone put a couple of mega car conversions his way so he can fleece you. :p
:D
Only joking...CW's above that sort of thing...well the fleecing anyway!
Originally posted by Chris Wilson
The manifold is also a restriction, but the real bugbear is the turbo housings themselves which would impossible / mega expensive to have cast in a larger size.
I have tried most mental gymnastics to think of ways to buy an exotic race car, all have had "snags" :D
Are there any other small turbo's that could still be used with the sequential setup? Obviously it would require there to be a manifold available for the supra I presume.
Chris Wilson
11-02-03, 00:18
As far as I am aware, no. The castings used are unique to this setup. Anything can be made, but you'd be talking more than you'd pay for a late Supra TT just for the patterns and unmachined castings.
Originally posted by Chris Wilson
As far as I am aware, no. The castings used are unique to this setup. Anything can be made, but you'd be talking more than you'd pay for a late Supra TT just for the patterns and unmachined castings.
Well somebody should bloody well make some :p
I think I am the same as a lot of people on here, I like the sequential setup and don't fancy going big single. I would just like the best setup on hybrids possible, thats still a lot of power for on the road... Now where's that lottery ticket.
I agree a nice set of Garrett 25`s or something alike would be great but the manifold to be made from scratch would prob cost around 1000 quid on its own :(
Guys don't be left thinking that Hybrids don't work by this thread as they certainly do. There are limitations which are obvious, but it has been proven that 500 bhp can be made on them. The lastest ones that Leon is selling have some very trick wheels. Ian has made some nice safe figure recently.
Would this be the new stage 4 hybrids?
Indeed...... Give him a call 01908 367100
Originally posted by Ian C
So it's the turbo impeller housing that's the bottleneck and not the manifold? Bugger.
No, not really. They are both as bad as each other. This can be realised when you have actually tried it.
We have fitted GT2510's to a standard manifold with machined plates to mount them and the inlet/outlet/downpipe made to match.
There really isn't that much to be gained. Not for the cost v power equation anyway.
Like Terry says, good cars can still be made using the hybrid route but I personally wouldn't get involved with trying to squeeze the factory manifold/turbo/sequential setup more than about 450bhp.
Regards,
Nathan
TDI PLC
Chris Wilson
11-02-03, 17:59
Originally posted by Nathan
No, not really. They are both as bad as each other. This can be realised when you have actually tried it.
We have fitted GT2510's to a standard manifold with machined plates to mount them and the inlet/outlet/downpipe made to match.
There really isn't that much to be gained. Not for the cost v power equation anyway.
Like Terry says, good cars can still be made using the hybrid route but I personally wouldn't get involved with trying to squeeze the factory manifold/turbo/sequential setup more than about 450bhp.
Regards,
Nathan
TDI PLC
Agreed, Toyota did a good job of matching all the turbo side very well indeed for the intended output and usage. Going beyond a hybrid compressor size increase is cost INeffective, better to bin the sequentials and decide to alter the character of the car altogether for high power output a bit further up the RPM scale. i still say the commonest mistake with road driven turbo car mods is to go TOO big on the turbo sizing, you need mid range punch, not high rpm ultimate power. People need to try a road car with a really big turbo(s) to see how useless they van be in every day driving. Area under the power curve is king.
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