View Full Version : Major problems, starting with fuel leak.
Tannhauser
27-10-05, 19:44
Car smelling of petrol on a 50 mile run home today, fuel consumption seemed heavy but EGTs and AFRs looked fine. 200m from home, and going at about 10mph,the car stopped. What happened next is confused, because initially I thought the car had stalled, but I know it involved (a) some sickening mechanical graunching noises (b) the car refusing to start initially and then (c) the car running, unhealthy sounding, back to the garage (mainly downhill).
It sounded very expensive and very serious. If so, that may well be the end of the car for me as I simply can't afford an engine rebuild.
Anyhow....my first problem is that I can't start the engine to check what it is/isn't doing. The second I prime the pumps, fuel is absolutely pissing out. I can only put it on for a couple of seconds, but it seems to be spraying from the top of the fuel injector plug, the one furthest from the front. The injectors were taken out, cleaned, flow-tested and replaced recently, so maybe something happened then.
It looks as though it might almost be accessible without taking anything off. Ideas or opinions about my next step are welcome. Any ideas to how to stop fuel pissing out, even temporarily? Bear in mind I've got very few tools and no knowledge or experience with engines....
Thanks
Cliff
Cliff, DON'T try to start it! sounds like you were lucky to escape a fire. From what you describe, I would say the fuel feed has come loose. This is situated near the bulkhead on the fuel rail. Or less likely an o'ring failure on inj #5 or 6.
dangerous brain
27-10-05, 20:27
Is there a quick way to electrically disconnect the fuel pump in order to turn the engine over and listen for horrible graunching noises. I think I'd personally be more worried about that than a fuel leak. Horrible graunching noises=much expensiveness. A fuel leak can now be fixed cheaply enough (now that it hasn't gone up in flames that is). Not many people get away with full on fuel leaks onto hot blocks :)
Tannhauser
27-10-05, 20:38
Cliff, DON'T try to start it! sounds like you were lucky to escape a fire. From what you describe, I would say the fuel feed has come loose. This is situated near the bulkhead on the fuel rail. Or less likely an o'ring failure on inj #5 or 6.
Yes. I thought that (about being lucky to escape fire). Rest assured that I won't try and start it until the leak is sorted. I think it's leaking from #6 as opposed to the feed, but it's not easy to tell.
I've seen the write-up on replacing injectors, looks like the manifold/throttle body thingy has to come off. Looks like a trip to Halfords to get some tools.
What's an O-Ring - is it like a washer?
Cliff
Tannhauser
27-10-05, 20:46
Is there a quick way to electrically disconnect the fuel pump in order to turn the engine over and listen for horrible graunching noises. I think I'd personally be more worried about that than a fuel leak. Horrible graunching noises=much expensiveness. A fuel leak can now be fixed cheaply enough (now that it hasn't gone up in flames that is). Not many people get away with full on fuel leaks onto hot blocks :)
Yes, I'm much more worried about the likely engine damage. It hadn't occurred to me that I could try the engine at all until the fuel issue was fixed. However, I don't know how to disconnect the fuel pumps.
Thank f*ck it didn't catch fire.
Cliff
What's an O-Ring - is it like a washer?
Cliff
an O-ring is like a rubber o-shaped washer. Used to seal things.. you know what I mean..
Yes. I thought that (about being lucky to escape fire). Rest assured that I won't try and start it until the leak is sorted. I think it's leaking from #6 as opposed to the feed, but it's not easy to tell.
I've seen the write-up on replacing injectors, looks like the manifold/throttle body thingy has to come off. Looks like a trip to Halfords to get some tools.
What's an O-Ring - is it like a washer?
Cliff
Injectors can be replaced without removing the mainfold etc.. I've done it twice :D No 6 Injector is quite easy to replace -
the engine noises could just be the fact that all cylinders are'nt getting fuel because of the fuel leak problem. if only a couple of cylinders are recieving fuel as a result of the drop in fuel pressure then it'll be lumpy as fcuk.
the chances of a fuel problem and a major engine problem happening together sounds very unlikely.. get your injectors a fuel system checked first i recon... was just a thought but i'm no expert:shrug:
Cliff, If you speak to Mark at Phoenix he has aa guy that does cheap recovery. You could do much worse than send it there.
Tannhauser
27-10-05, 22:27
Cliff, If you speak to Mark at Phoenix he has aa guy that does cheap recovery. You could do much worse than send it there.
That's good to know if it gets to that stage, thanks. Thanks also to everyone for their ideas/suggestions.
OK, I've got no. 6 injector out and there is indeed a big tear in the O ring. Of course, I might have done this getting it out, but I guess they are designed to withstand that. Can anyone get one to me asap? I can pay by return of post.
Cheers
Cliff
That's good to know if it gets to that stage, thanks. Thanks also to everyone for their ideas/suggestions.
OK, I've got no. 6 injector out and there is indeed a big tear in the O ring. Of course, I might have done this getting it out, but I guess they are designed to withstand that. Can anyone get one to me asap? I can pay by return of post.
Cheers
Cliff
Try a local motor factors
If you have a single-entry fuel rail that point of entry is right by #6 injector - so if it pissed fuel out then all the other injectors would lose fuel pressure and the running of the engine would therefore be awful. If you weren't on boost then I can't see it destroying your engine instantly, and I know you aren't the type to try and "drive through" a problem like this...
If it's one of the big fat O-rings around the body of the injector the I'd be very impressed if you tore it by removing the injector :) I couldn't do that if you paid me to.
-Ian
michel lane
28-10-05, 09:13
i had the same problem , the noise is because you are not getting enough fuel to the cylinder... i replaced the o ring and it cured it , but the problem i have now is that the car tends to miss on high boost... good luck
That's just a spark thang :)
dangerous brain
28-10-05, 13:30
OOO thank the lord for that. I wouldn't have thought that a fuel shortage could cause noises. I'd have been papping it thinking my engine was tearing itself apart. In my experience O ring seals usually go when you fit them as opposed to when you remove them (the unions I mean) If you get one from a motor factor make sure its compatable with fuel (if you aren't sure soak it in petrol for a couple of hours before fitting it)
If it's one of the big fat O-rings around the body of the injector the I'd be very impressed if you tore it by removing the injector :) I couldn't do that if you paid me to.
-Ian
Have you seen his avatar?!
:looney:
Tannhauser
28-10-05, 13:44
Have you seen his avatar?!
:looney:
Heh-heh, well I was a bit heavier then. Anyway, I've got the grip of a ten year old girl.
Tannhauser
28-10-05, 13:46
If you have a single-entry fuel rail that point of entry is right by #6 injector - so if it pissed fuel out then all the other injectors would lose fuel pressure and the running of the engine would therefore be awful. If you weren't on boost then I can't see it destroying your engine instantly, and I know you aren't the type to try and "drive through" a problem like this...
If it's one of the big fat O-rings around the body of the injector the I'd be very impressed if you tore it by removing the injector :) I couldn't do that if you paid me to.
-Ian
Well, fingers crossed, but it sounded a bit worse than poor running. We'll see.
Getting an injector O ring round here is like asking for God's autograph. But I'm checking somewhere out this pm.
dangerous brain
28-10-05, 13:54
I can probably sort you something out next week at work if you haven't sorted anything by then. I'll need dimensions and thickness.
Tannhauser
28-10-05, 15:47
I can probably sort you something out next week at work if you haven't sorted anything by then. I'll need dimensions and thickness.
Thanks - I might need that if this doesn't work out.
OK, two questions for the assembled wise:
1) I've purchased an O ring, price 20P, but turns out the guy didn't realise its for an injector. It's just a bog-standard nitrile rubber O ring. Will this do the job, or does it need to be some exotic petrol-resistant material?
2) I'm getting nowhere refitting the injector with new ring. I just can't get it to go in. I'm trying to work around the throttle body thingy which doesn't help. Any tips - lubricant? Sledge hammer? Back to the gym for more grip work? Prayer?
Cliff
Thanks - I might need that if this doesn't work out.
OK, two questions for the assembled wise:
1) I've purchased an O ring, price 20P, but turns out the guy didn't realise its for an injector. It's just a bog-standard nitrile rubber O ring. Will this do the job, or does it need to be some exotic petrol-resistant material?
2) I'm getting nowhere refitting the injector with new ring. I just can't get it to go in. I'm trying to work around the throttle body thingy which doesn't help. Any tips - lubricant? Sledge hammer? Back to the gym for more grip work? Prayer?
Cliff
Tiny bit of WD40 will lube the rings enough to get them in - I'm a wimp and need to do this. They won't come back out - as the WD will evaporate and you'll be putting the plate in the way to hold them.
dangerous brain
28-10-05, 17:18
Dunno about the fitting mullarkey but if you are worried that your seal isnt up to the fuel drop it into some petrol for an hour or more before you fit it. If it goes brittle or swells up its no good.
Tannhauser
28-10-05, 17:23
Re-fitted injector with new O ring. WD40 helped (Thanks Alex), as did getting the idle control valve housing out of the way. The result? No difference - petrol spraying out like there's no tomorrow. Even in 1-2 seconds, there's a worryingly large petrol lake.
Amateur hour over, next stop, professional help.
Tannhauser
12-11-05, 15:42
OK, I'm using my voodoo powers to resurrect this thread in the hope of further advice and ideas.
Jay-450 on here has been very generous in helping me investigate this. So far, this is the story:
1) The O ring I'd got was just the wrong size. Denso O rings proving hard to get hold of. Fitted a near match O ring as a stop gap - this seems to have stopped the leak in injector six, but discovered right at the end that injector five is also leaking. Didn't replace due to results of compression test.
2) Compression test results sound grim:
1 - 158
2 - 161
3 - 159
4 -161
5 -145
6 -110
No. 5 and 6 were checked a couple of times.
3) A magnetic telescopic doohickey inserted into cylinder 6 seemed to show tiny bits, but nothing substantial or conclusive.
Other info: as far as I can tell, injector six isn't damaged (though very sooty and possibly with added 'bits' on it. I have HKS 86.5mm pistons and HKS 264 cams, if that's relevant (I still have them if it isn't relevant :D )
Questions for the assembled wise:
a) What are the likely causes of these compression results?
b) Is the next step in diagnosis to remove the cylinder head? Or is another approach better?
c) Should a monkey (i.e. me), equipped with the manual from JohnA's helpful 'More Boost' site, attempt to remove the head partially,totally, or not at all?
Regards
Cliff
dangerous brain
12-11-05, 18:16
Unless you are confident that you can get the timing belt back in the right place I seriously wouldn't endeavour to take that head off yourself fella. Options open to you still might be to get along to chris wilsons and let him stick his video probe down the cylinders to see what is what down there (I remember him saying he was gonna buy 1 ages back). If its a leak between the 5 and 6 cylinder across the head gasket I'm not sure how you would diagnose that but I would have thought that would be the cheapest scenario of the lot. If the pistons or rings were worn the engine should in theory breath heavy, find out where your engine oil breather is and see if there is an excess of oil in that area (obviously you will need to find out what an excess looks like before you panic when you see oil).
Just a couple of ideas to get you going.
Tannhauser
13-11-05, 16:40
Thanks Bry
Bump for any other ideas on compression/damage question?
The top and bottom of it is that it looks like number 5 and number 6 aren't "sealing" correctly. At the end of the day to put this right the heads going to have to come off. I can't see how you could put anything right that may be causing these issues without taking the head off.
A leakdown test may help you to source the cause. (You may be able to hear air bubbles in the coolant or in the oil, or hear air rushing into the inlet or exhaust manifolds)
The problem with taking the head off Cliff is the turbo's. IIRC you're single right?? So at least it's not going to be as much of a nightmare, but it's still the thing that makes the job a pain.
I would say yes you could do it. (At the end of the day, it's just undoing nuts and bolts!) but I would heavily recommend you buy the Toyota engine service manual, and follow it step by step. Don't rush anything and don't bodge anything, and you'll be laughing.
Now as long as it's not a piston/piston ring issue, You should be able to either replace the HG, or strip the valve train from the head and repair what ever's gone pete tong with that. Again use the above manual, and no rushing or bodging :no: (Not saying that you would, just...well just saying!)
Wiltshire isn't a bazillion miles from me, so if you get into big problems at any stage, if I can't help you out on here, I'll pop over and see if I can help you if you want.
Best of luck mate,
Tony
Get it to someone with a leak down tester or rent one . Best way to find out were you are loosing compression without having to take things apart.
Tannhauser
13-11-05, 17:10
A leakdown test might be a possibility. I've been reading a little about this.
Tony + Bry - I wouldn't attempt to put it back together again - I would only be disassembling it.
Tony - thanks for the offer - very much appreciated. We'll see how it goes.
dangerous brain
13-11-05, 17:24
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Tony + Bry - I wouldn't attempt to put it back together again - I would only be disassembling it.
Problem is alot of mechanics won't put a car back together that someone else has stripped down. I had this problem when I took the heads off my omega V6. Nobody wanted to refit them for me. I ended up finding a mate to do it for me.
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