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Suspension Replacement


GavinL
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Hi...

 

My front shocks are leaking and are in need of replacement fairly urgently. I have been considering my options as follows:

 

1. Phone Toyota and pay X hundreds of pounds for two shocks.

 

2. Order a set of fully adjustable shocks and springs from Whiteline @£460.00 + shipping & duties. 1/2" drop in height would be nice.

 

3. Get a set of Bilsteins & Eibach springs, too low for my tastes.

 

4. Find a set of replacement aftermarket shocks and use them with the stock springs.

 

Can anyone answer the following questions:

 

How long do springs last?

 

Is it okay to replace shocks in pairs or should they be replaced as a full set?

 

Are springs and shocks matched as such?

 

Are there any other options I have not considered?

 

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

 

 

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Quote: from GavinL on 12:18 am on Oct. 14, 2001

 

Hi...

 

My front shocks are leaking and are in need of replacement fairly urgently. I have been considering my options as follows:

 

1. Phone Toyota and pay X hundreds of pounds for two shocks.

 

 

Do you actually know the price?. Sometimes you can be surprised at how cheap they might be compared to other options. Plus, the major advantage is, you get components that are a good match for the car.

 

 

2. Order a set of fully adjustable shocks and springs from Whiteline @£460.00 + shipping & duties. 1/2" drop in height would be nice.

 

 

Good choice, though when you say "a set" do you mean a set of 4? I assume so in which case that would be a nice option. The Whiteline kit should be fitted to all 4 wheels.  

 

 

3. Get a set of Bilsteins & Eibach springs, too low for my tastes.

 

 

Yuk!

 

Driving the stock VVTI MKIV, I am reminded how much better the stock ride is to cars with Eibachs fitted; as I now have a direct comparison with both Mark Ayling's and Justin's cars (which are both with me together with the VVTI). Mark's car is similar to Justin's (also Eibach's & Bilsteins).

 

With both Mark and Justin's car the ride is way, way too harsh. They really so shake, rattle... okay... they do not roll (much). But they don't handle well either!

 

By comparison, the stock VVTI is smooth and rattle-free. You can actually feel the suspension working and absorbing undulations in the surface. The only problem is, there is a tad too much body-roll if you push it. But that roll should be dialled out by fitting uprated anti-roll bars, not stiffer springs.

 

IMO the very LAST thing a street-driven Supra needs is stiffer springs. I always suspected this after going down that route with my car. The stock springs are plenty stiff enough as they are. Now, not only have I experienced the terrible handling that fitting stiffer springs causes with my own car, I have experienced it with 2 other cars as well.  

 

 

4. Find a set of replacement aftermarket shocks and use them with the stock springs.

 

 

Dodgy option. far better to go for a matched set.

 

 

How long do springs last?

 

 

No real set time. Depends on useage and application.

 

 

Is it okay to replace shocks in pairs or should they be replaced as a full set?

 

 

Must be replaced in pairs at least. A *matched* set is a much better option.

 

 

Are springs and shocks matched as such?

 

 

YES... well that's how it SHOULD be done *especially* on a high-power sports car. But reading typical tuner's adverts, shopping for springs and shocks is akin to choosing from the pick 'n mix counter at Woolies.

 

Are there any other options I have not considered?

 

 

HTH,

 

Yours,

J

 

 

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Gav

 

ah someone else with a suspension dilemma!

 

[general ramble ] :

I have a full set of UK Springs and 2 rear shocks available.  In a weeks time i'll have a full-set of Jap-spec springs available too.  i know you need front shocks mainly though, so i guess not much use..

Interesting that your front shocks are leaking/going.    My 1995 UK-specs' front shocks were leaking too, so i managed to get hold of some low-mileage stock Jap-spec shocks (& springs) to replace all 4 shocks.     Was not happy at all with the result though....   car feels like a limousine now.   too uncontrolled and floaty IMHO.

 

so....

 

After some thought, I have bought Eibach springs and they're being fitted to my car next week.   I will then see how the car is using these Eibach springs with the stock Jap-spec shocks that are on it now.   I may be happy with it as is, or i may upgrade the shocks.   I've been looking for Toyota Bilsteins (2nd hand it'll have to be) for ages but no joy.   They are quite hard too I hear.    So if i do decide to uprate the shocks too, I may get Kyb AGX adjustables.  Then you can adjust the stiffness to some degree to suit your tastes generally, and specifically for track days etc.  Pete Betts did this recently and seems happy with it.     I can find the email and forward it to you if you like.     I am going to sample Darrell Payne's car next w/e as he has Eibachs and Kyb AGX shocks fitted to his UK-spec.       Phil Duley and Nathan both have just the Eibachs on their car, with standard Toyota shocks.   Phil said to me that fitting Eibachs was on of the best mods he did to his car.

In general, Aftermarket performance shocks do all seem to be v. expensive though at about £100+ per shock !  eek!

[/general ramble]

 

Springs should last a looong time.  life of the car really.    JB reckons that his stock springs may have sagged a little though (before he replaced them).

 

Shock replacements : I think ideally as a set, but if they're the same type, then it shouldn't be too bad just doing 1 axle.  But others may know better here.

 

Springs and shocks are matched, yes.   but usually you can get away with non-matched ones.    Shocks have bump and rebound rates, (i.e how much damping is applied when the shock is compressed and then 'stretched') and these should be matched to the spring's length and also the springs stiffness.

 

I have investigated Koni shocks, but they no longer make a suitable shock for the Supra.   Bilsteins are no longer available in Europe.   To complicate it further there are at least 2 different types of Bilsteins for the Supra :  "off the peg" Bilsteins for the Supra (avaialable in Japan and maybe USA) and then there's the "Toyota Bilstein" which were an Original Equipment option on the Supra, and are specced differently to the "off the peg" Bilsteins.  

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Quote: from Ash on 9:52 am on Oct. 14, 2001[br]Quote: from GavinL on 12:18 am on Oct. 14, 2001

 

But they don't handle well either!

 

 

Ash

could you elaborate a little here please ?   what handling aspects are you referring to ? pitch / roll / understeer / oversteer / stability etc.?

 

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Quote: from Ash on 9:52 am on Oct. 14, 2001[br]But that roll should be dialled out by fitting uprated anti-roll bars, not stiffer springs.

 

 

Yours,

J

 

Well I'm glad I wasn't the first to raise this. I keep hearing stiffer spring or stiffer shock or stiffer spring and stiffer shock and I only remember a single post where the anti-roll bars were mentioned, and I think that was part of a group purchase enquiry.

 

It's my understanding that the springs and shock absorbers are tuned to keep the wheels in contact with the tarmac for the maximum duration and that the anti-roll bars were the most significant part of the suspension while cornering (ignoring the joints and body-shell for the moment).

Therefore, if you're not getting tramp and you're looking for better cornering, surely the first things on the suspension to tune are the anti-roll bars.

 

I think most people seem to forget that the handling of the car is the sum of the tyres, wheels, suspension joint stiffness (ideally being solid and not rubber), spring+shock+roll-bar, body-shell stiffness.

 

Change one item and you lose what should be a 'designed-in' flat response, unless you tune it back to flat by changes right across the board.

 

 

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Quote: from Ash on 9:52 am on Oct. 14, 2001[br]Quote: from GavinL on 12:18 am on Oct. 14, 2001

 

Hi...

 

My front shocks are leaking and are in need of replacement fairly urgently. I have been considering my options as follows:

 

1. Phone Toyota and pay X hundreds of pounds for two shocks.

 

 

Do you actually know the price?. Sometimes you can be surprised at how cheap they might be compared to other options. Plus, the major advantage is, you get components that are a good match for the car.

 

 

Fair comment I will check the prices. I had discussed the merits of adding stiffer anti-roll bars (TRD Kit from www.mvpmotorsports.com) and keeping the stock spring/shock combo but was disuaded by Chris Wilson.

 

Order a set of fully adjustable shocks and springs from Whiteline @£460.00 + shipping & duties. 1/2" drop in height would be nice.

 

 

Good choice, though when you say "a set" do you mean a set of 4? I assume so in which case that would be a nice option. The Whiteline kit should be fitted to all 4 wheels.  

 

Yes I mean a set however I did not plan on getting the full kit with anti-roll bars and bushes.

 

 

 

 

1. Phone Toyota and pay X hundreds of pounds for two shocks.

 

 

Do you actually know the price?. Sometimes you can be surprised at how cheap they might be compared to other options. Plus, the major advantage is, you get components that are a good match for the car.

 

 

..........Fair comment I will check the prices. I had discussed the merits of adding stiffer anti-roll bars (TRD Kit) and keeping the stock spring/shock combo (of which I have no complaints) but was disuaded by Chris Wilson.

 

Order a set of fully adjustable shocks and springs from Whiteline @£460.00 + shipping & duties. 1/2" drop in height would be nice

 

 

Good choice, though when you say "a set" do you mean a set of 4? I assume so in which case that would be a nice option. The Whiteline kit should be fitted to all 4 wheels.  

 

Yes I meant to say a full set , however I did not plan on getting the full kit with anti-roll bars and bushes.

 

 

 

(Edited by GavinL at 3:47 pm on Oct. 14, 2001)

 

 

(Edited by GavinL at 4:11 pm on Oct. 14, 2001)

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Quote: from Doughie on 9:52 am on Oct. 14, 2001[br]Gav

 

ah someone else with a suspension dilemma!

 

Interesting that your front shocks are leaking/going.    My 1995 UK-specs' front shocks were leaking too, so i managed to get hold of some low-mileage stock Jap-spec shocks (& springs) to replace all 4 shocks.

 

 

So if i do decide to uprate the shocks too, I may get Kyb AGX adjustables.  Then you can adjust the stiffness to some degree to suit your tastes generally, and specifically for track days etc.  Pete Betts did this recently and seems happy with it.     I can find the email and forward it to you if you like.

 

Springs should last a looong time.  life of the car really.    JB reckons that his stock springs may have sagged a little though (before he replaced them).

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting that your front shocks are leaking/going.    My 1995 UK-specs' front shocks were leaking too, so i managed to get hold of some low-mileage stock Jap-spec shocks (& springs) to replace all 4 shocks.

 

 

.............. Warning to any other UK spec owners me thinks.

 

So if i do decide to uprate the shocks too, I may get Kyb AGX adjustables.  Then you can adjust the stiffness to some degree to suit your tastes generally, and specifically for track days etc.  Pete Betts did this recently and seems happy with it.     I can find the email and forward it to you if you like.     [/general ramble]

 

I would appreciated that email

 

JB reckons that his stock springs may have sagged a little though (before he replaced them).

 

no comment :biggrin:

 

 

 

 

 

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Paul / Ash

 

I'm well aware that a vehicle's handling is a result of many items and their interaction.  

I cannot affect the Supras roll stiffness, as this is in effect defined at the factory.   (empirical evidence tend to sugggest that strut braces do not appear to have much measurable material effect as the Supra was designed as a coupe and therefore has good torsional rigidity).

 

Vehicles (land & aeronautical) essentially rotate around 3 axes denoted as : roll, pitch, yaw.

I have an issue with pitch as well as roll currently.   The anti-roll bars primarily affect only roll and will not affect the pitch instability that my car currently suffers from, albeit in a mild form.

 

This is not a "stiffer is better" thing, this is a "matching the vehicles charactersitics so that they better suit my personal tastes thing" !    thicker anti-roll bar will not provide the changes that i am looking for as they will not affect pitch stability.

 

One of the prime characteristic of Eibach springs is that they will lower the ride-height and this will, correspondingly, lower the roll-centre of the vehicle which is a very desirable characteristic as any chassis engineer/designer will tell you.

 

and, yes, i am getting tramp, too !  (still not sure why though .... no-one's been able to supply plausible reasons for its occurrence).

 

this is not to say that i am discounting anti-roll bars in ayn way as an element for the solution.   Pls can you supply me with a suppliers details and i will follow it up.   Seems there is a lack of info on supply of these items genereally.    (I mena anti-roll bars on their own and not the full kit meaning springs/shocks/bushes/anti-roll bars like Whiteline kit).   Surely someone in Europe supplies anti-roll bars tailored for the mkiv ?   has anyone fitted them ?   interested in feedback as always.

Ash - Have you done any testing with these various suspension components and the results of their sole use or combination ?   would be interested in results.

 

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Guest Martin F

 

Just my two peneth worth.

 

I don't think many people make uprated anti-rollbars for the MKIV.

 

As far as i know only Whiteline and the guys in the states organised a limited run of TRD ones.

 

So an uprated item may be hard to find.

 

 

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Quote: from Doughie on 8:19 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]Vehicles (land & aeronautical) essentially rotate around 3 axes denoted as : roll, pitch, yaw.

I have an issue with pitch as well as roll currently.   The anti-roll bars primarily affect only roll and will not affect the pitch instability that my car currently suffers from, albeit in a mild form.

 

I think that big wing on the back end has gone to your head a bit. "Come in red leader, bandits on your 6 o'clock" :biggrin:

 

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Chris Wilson supplied and fitted some custom dual valved koni shocks and matched springs *specifically* for the MKIV Supra to my 98 VVT-i.  To date this is the best money I've spent on the car.

 

The ride is very subtle without the harshness you usually get with aftermarket suspension, the car puts the power down much better and of couurse the handling is much improved.  The ride height is slightly lowered, more so at the front removing the 'nose up' stance.

 

At around 1500quid it's not cheap but it's money *well* spent.

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Quote: from Nick on 9:09 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]Chris Wilson supplied and fitted some custom dual valved koni shocks and matched springs *specifically* for the MKIV Supra to my 98 VVT-i.  To date this is the best money I've spent on the car.

 

The ride is very subtle without the harshness you usually get with aftermarket suspension, the car puts the power down much better and of couurse the handling is much improved.  The ride height is slightly lowered, more so at the front removing the 'nose up' stance.

 

At around 1500quid it's not cheap but it's money *well* spent.

 

I read that as being on the front at first reading but I guess you mean all round for £1500.

 

Does anyone know (e.g. Rich) what the Whiteline set comes with and for how much?

 

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Quote: from Martin F on 8:31 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]

Just my two peneth worth.

 

I don't think many people make uprated anti-rollbars for the MKIV.

 

As far as i know only Whiteline and the guys in the states organised a limited run of TRD ones.

 

So an uprated item may be hard to find.

 

 

 

 

According to MVP Motorsports there is a TRD antiroll bar kit which is both front and rear at 27% over stock and a special which is a rear only at 50% + over stock.

 

I have been considering the TRD 27% kit as I am not unhappy with the softer stock springs and the ride height (I'm not a lover of lowered cars) but would like to reduce body roll on hard cornering.

 

I would expect that TRD took time to get this kit right and the quality should be unquestionable.

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Guest Martin F

Yep i think MVP are the guys who arranged it for the American Supe owners, probably as one of their guys is on the MKIV.com list.

 

As far as i know there are limited numbers and when they're gone they're gone.

 

Try finding a TRD anti-roll bar on any other web site. ;)

 

 

 

 

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Quote: from GavinL on 9:48 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]
Quote: from Martin F on 8:31 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]

Just my two peneth worth.

 

I don't think many people make uprated anti-rollbars for the MKIV.

 

As far as i know only Whiteline and the guys in the states organised a limited run of TRD ones.

 

So an uprated item may be hard to find.

 

 

 

 

According to MVP Motorsports there is a TRD antiroll bar kit which is both front and rear at 27% over stock and a special which is a rear only at 50% + over stock.

 

I have been considering the TRD 27% kit as I am not unhappy with the softer stock springs and the ride height (I'm not a lover of lowered cars) but would like to reduce body roll on hard cornering.

 

I would expect that TRD took time to get this kit right and the quality should be unquestionable.

 

I too am quite pleased with the handling, no tramp, I don't have any dive problems under heavy breaking and I don't suffer wallow. I think this is down to my bushes still being fairly tight.

 

I'd like to try the TRD anti-roll bars to see if I can tune out some of the oversteer. I don't want to go to the astronomic expense of stiffer springs/shockers as that means having to also uprate all the bushes too for it to have any meaning, and I have yet to here/see any mention of a set of competition/fast road bushes.

 

If you do find out the price and it's not ridiculous, could I ask you to let me know please? BTW, make sure they come with suitably uprated bushes, or there is a part number for some.

 

 

 

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Quote: from Paul Booth on 11:45 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]
Quote: from GavinL on 9:48 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]
Quote: from Martin F on 8:31 pm on Oct. 14, 2001[br]

Just my two peneth worth.

 

I don't think many people make uprated anti-rollbars for the MKIV.

 

As far as i know only Whiteline and the guys in the states organised a limited run of TRD ones.

 

So an uprated item may be hard to find.

 

 

 

 

According to MVP Motorsports there is a TRD antiroll bar kit which is both front and rear at 27% over stock and a special which is a rear only at 50% + over stock.

 

I have been considering the TRD 27% kit as I am not unhappy with the softer stock springs and the ride height (I'm not a lover of lowered cars) but would like to reduce body roll on hard cornering.

 

I would expect that TRD took time to get this kit right and the quality should be unquestionable.

 

I too am quite pleased with the handling, no tramp, I don't have any dive problems under heavy breaking and I don't suffer wallow. I think this is down to my bushes still being fairly tight.

 

I'd like to try the TRD anti-roll bars to see if I can tune out some of the oversteer. I don't want to go to the astronomic expense of stiffer springs/shockers as that means having to also uprate all the bushes too for it to have any meaning, and I have yet to here/see any mention of a set of competition/fast road bushes.

 

If you do find out the price and it's not ridiculous, could I ask you to let me know please? BTW, make sure they come with suitably uprated bushes, or there is a part number for some.

 

 

 

Hi...

 

The price is $340.00 plus shipping/duties. I am going to enquire about a few things with MVP so I will find out the whole story.

 

From memory, TRD do supply anti-roll bar bushes but they are very expensive.

 

 

regards..............

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Quote: from GavinL on 8:13 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]Hi...

 

The price is $340.00 plus shipping/duties. I am going to enquire about a few things with MVP so I will find out the whole story.

 

From memory, TRD do supply anti-roll bar bushes but they are very expensive.

 

 

regards..............

 

That's probably the best value for money for a handling performance upgrade I've seen to date.

 

Sign me up :)

 

What do you mean by expensive?

 

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Quote: from GavinL on 8:42 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]stupid money ........either $90.00 or £90.00 each!

 

OK, that's x 4 bushes(?) but nevertheless, bushes are one of the most important parts of a suspension tuning, in the extreme the bushes get replaced by UJ's and swivels to remove *all* non-specific movement.

 

I agree, they are charging that figure *because they can* but you won't get *all* the benefit of the anti-roll bar without matching anti-roll bar bushes.

 

If there's an alternative bush supplier that can match the over-sized bar with harder bushes then great, however........ :(

 

Once it comes to wishbones and trailing link suspension with performance bushes, it can get *really* silly. We used to buy the performance bushes seperately, reinforce the metal suspension parts to the same spec and then have a local engineering company press-fit the bushes for us. Used to save £100s.

 

In this case, I can't see a comfortable alternative.

 

Don't wish to insult, and please forgive me if I patronise, even slightly, but you know the road noise is going to increase on harder bushes?

 

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Quote: from Paul Booth on 9:08 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]
Quote: from GavinL on 8:42 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]stupid money ........either $90.00 or £90.00 each!

 

OK, that's x 4 bushes(?) but nevertheless, bushes are one of the most important parts of a suspension tuning, in the extreme the bushes get replaced by UJ's and swivels to remove *all* non-specific movement.

 

I agree, they are charging that figure *because they can* but you won't get *all* the benefit of the anti-roll bar without matching anti-roll bar bushes.

 

If there's an alternative bush supplier that can match the over-sized bar with harder bushes then great, however........ :(

 

Once it comes to wishbones and trailing link suspension with performance bushes, it can get *really* silly. We used to buy the performance bushes seperately, reinforce the metal suspension parts to the same spec and then have a local engineering company press-fit the bushes for us. Used to save £100s.

 

In this case, I can't see a comfortable alternative.

 

Don't wish to insult, and please forgive me if I patronise, even slightly, but you know the road noise is going to increase on harder bushes?

 

I understand that the stock anti-roll bars are hollow, if that is the case they may well beef up the tube thickness internally, keep the same overall diameter and retain use of the original bushes. I will try and clarify this with MVP Motorsports when I contact them.

 

I wasn't aware that road noise would increase, I don't think that will trouble me tto much.

 

Feel free to patronise, my knowledge of car mechanicals and concepts is pitiful.

 

 

regards..........

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Guest Martin F
Quote: from GavinL on 9:03 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]

T W Hawkins in Ewell have just quoted me £166 + vat each for OEM front shocks.....ouch!

 

Does anyone know of a good supplier on this one?

 

 

regards...............

 

(Edited by GavinL at 9:07 am on Oct. 15, 2001)

 

Gavin, have you tried Jay Marks in the states ??

 

 

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Quote: from Martin F on 9:24 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]
Quote: from GavinL on 9:03 am on Oct. 15, 2001[br]

T W Hawkins in Ewell have just quoted me £166 + vat each for OEM front shocks.....ouch!

 

Does anyone know of a good supplier on this one?

 

 

regards...............

 

(Edited by GavinL at 9:07 am on Oct. 15, 2001)

 

Gavin, have you tried Jay Marks in the states ??

 

 

Hi...

 

Yes I had thought of them, I was a bit concerned however that the US car may not have the same shocks as the UK cars.

 

Does anyone know if they are the same?

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Looking at the two anti-roll bar options from TRD :

One +27% all round,  one +50% at the back.

 

I would not advise personally going for the "+50% rear only" option as increasing rear anti-roll stiffness has the effect, (certainly in race cars), of *increasing* oversteer (or conversely, decreasing understeer).

 

It sounds counter-intuitive, but if the Supra responds in the same way racing cars react by stiffening the rear only then you may get more oversteer, and this is not what you want on a powerful car like the Supra !

 

 

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